A traditionalist is someone who tries to preserve the nature of the church as it has come down to us over the last 2000 years.
A conservative is someone who is not as liberal as the liberals.
A traditionalist relies on objective measures: e.g. "Here is the definitive statement of Pope Pius XI. Does the current statement agree, or does it say something different?"
A conservative relies on subjective measures: "Cardinals Weakland and Mahoney are way out in left field, but my church isn't that bad (yet)."
A traditionalist is dedicated to the defense of doctrines: e.g. "Extra ecclesiam, nulla sallus."
A conservative is dedicated to personalities: e.g. the chant at World Youth Day: "JP 2, we love you."
72 posted on 10/14/02 7:50 PM Pacific by Maximilian
How very trite! Of course, Max, you should reveal that you are a Lefebvrerite Trad, not a Papal Trad. You support the schismatics, such as the SSPX.
As a Papal Trad, I give more than lip service to our Holy Father and fully support the Indult and those who have come back into full communion with Rome, such as the founders of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter.
I see my attachment to the 'Tridentine' Mass as a licit choice. I could have also chosen the 'Novus Ordo', but I didn't. I accept both as valid and licit, when my Diocesean Bishop grants faculties to individual priests to celebrate either or both in his diocese.
FWIW, I still attend the occasional 'Novus Ordo" Mass' whether it is offered privately by a retired priest, or by a priest at, for example, a Knights of Columbus function. Again, while I prefer the 'Tridentine' form, I reject neither the validity, nor, in Christian charity, the licitness of most 'Novus Ordo' Masses. (I think that we all can agree that there are some NO Masses which are "over the top".
You make special note of "Extra ecclesiam, nulla sallus."
Don't tell me that you are a Feeneyite too?
Sursum Corda
Well, this post at least locates you on the spectrum.
Personally, I detest the phrases "conservative" and "integrist" and "schismatic.
I prefer "orthodox" and "heterodox." There is room in the orthodox camp for traditionalists as well as those who accept the Novus Ordo as valid and licit if said according to rubrics.
Your denigration of so-called "conservatives" reveals more about you than them.
Cut through the hyperbole and just use the integrist term "neoconservative," OK? That is obviously the term you intend with these remarks.
>..just so we know: how do you define 'extra ecclesiam?' By what precise standard is one 'in ecclesia' versus 'extra ecclesiam?"