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>>Interesting aside about Lefebvre.

Good point - I had missed this when I first read the article. What is really interesting about those quotes from Huels is that he admits and describes the deceptive "dialectical process" that was put in place at Vatican II.

He says that during the Council the wording was kept deliberately vague in order to generate consensus acceptance.

Then after the council, the reactionaries were driven out of the Church, allowing the liberal viewpoint to interpret the documents according to their original intention. Once their opponents have been marginalized, they are free to have a field day, exposing the time bombs that they had hidden in the documents.

This policy is lifted verbatim from the communist playbook. This is the way they think, and they're proud of it.

When Peter Vere praises Huel's tremendous intellect, he praising a mastermind of dialectical combat against the Church. When he writes articles attacking traditionalists, he's forwarding the dialectical process of destruction put in place at Vatican II.

Maybe Vere's not aware of this, maybe he's only a "useful idiot." That's why it's essential to expose revolutionaries like Huels so we can see whom he's been using to promote his agenda.

When Peter Vere praises Huel's tremendous intellect, he praising a mastermind of dialectical combat against the Church. When he writes articles attacking traditionalists, he's forwarding the dialectical process of destruction put in place at Vatican II.

Maybe Vere's not aware of this, maybe he's only a "useful idiot."

In charity, I think you must apply the benefit of the doubt, and assume that what Pete says is what he believes to be the Truth, not part of some sinister dialectical combat.

And Pete is certainly not an idiot. Like myself, he may just be (relatively) young and naive. Furthermore, in their concern to distance themselves from the real errors of schismatic traditionalism (there are no errors in faithful Catholic traditionalism, really) folks like Vere and Hand can and do error honestly. They have seen the true dangers of schism and their zeal in removing themselves from those errors may lead them into other errors, no less dangerous.

For that matter, even Huel's true motives are unknown, though the damage he has done may be objectively quantified.

Ascribing motives is the number one offense on both sides of the conservative versus traditionalist divide.

That's why it's essential to expose revolutionaries like Huels so we can see whom he's been using to promote his agenda.

Agreed. The bottom line will be whether Vere is willing to abandon any objective errors he picked up from Huels. Or whether Vere has personalized the errors of Huel at all, in reality.

<> That is total bullshit. An Ecumenical Council is not susceptible to that sort of "dialetical" approach; unless you think the Holy Spirit coaxed conmmunism in the Council....who knows what it is you believe.

I do think your "analysis" is sophomoric conspiritorialism of a rank order. You'll fit in with several of the folks on these theads. One is befriending you even now...Ultie, meet Maxi...Maxi, meet Ultie...

As Jackie Gleason used to say "And away we go......."<>

The Vatican assault against Lefebvre was the green light for the new religion which is being introduced by gradual changes, principally by means of the liturgy. The idea that the changes to the liturgy were inconsequential and merely a matter of discipline has always been a lie. The liturgy can alter belief--and does. At the last Gallup poll of Catholics, taken in 1992 for US News and World Report, two- thirds of all Catholics no longer believe in the Real Presence--hardly surprising when the text and rubrics of the New Mass suppress any show of reverence or belief. The question is why has Rome permitted all this. Time and again it has backed-down and given-in to the left. It's almost ludicrous. A new custom is introduced illegally, then after a few years it is rigidly enforced "for the sake of uniformity." Meanwhile two-thousand year old traditions are trashed. And the Vatican plays along despite the papal oath to uphold tradition--not only doctrinally, but in its practices.