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Influential Priest-Canonist is Abuser
Adoremus Bulletin ^ | September, 2002 | Helen Hull Hitchcock

Posted on 10/14/2002 9:07:17 AM PDT by Maximilian

Online Edition - Vol. VIII, No. 6: September 2002

 

Influential Priest-Canonist
is Abuser of Member of Bishops Review Board

by Helen Hull Hitchcock

One of the most troubling stories from victims of clerical sex-abuse that the US bishops heard at their June meeting in Dallas was that of Michael Bland, a former priest in the Friar Servants of Mary, known as the Servites.

Bland told the bishops that in 1994, almost seven years after his ordination, he revealed to superiors that he had been sexually abused as a teenager by an older member of the same order, and that he had been called to Rome to discuss the case. The order's authorities told him to reconcile with his abuser. When he refused, the authorities turned against him; whereupon he left the order and the priesthood.

"The priesthood lost me, but kept the perpetrator", Bland told the bishops, noting that the abuser, whom he did not name, had recently been promoted to full professor and vice-dean at a major Catholic university.

After his Dallas testimony, Bland, a psychologist who is now clinical-pastoral coordinator for victim assistance ministry for the Archdiocese of Chicago, was appointed a member of the bishops' national review board on clerical sexual abuse.

On August 6, the unnamed abuser was identified. The Washington Post revealed that John Huels, a Servite priest, influential liturgical canonist, professor of canon law and vice-dean of Saint Paul University in Ottawa, was Bland's abuser.

Alan Cooperman of the Washington Post reported, "Yesterday, in a brief statement that made no mention of Bland, Saint Paul University in Ottawa announced that the Reverend John M. Huels has temporarily left his posts as a professor and vice-dean of canon law".

The Post said that Huels told the university rector, the Reverend Dale M. Schlitt, that he would be "on medical leave for the treatment of severe depression". ("Justice Delayed Brings Vindication, Not Peace", www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52567-2002Aug6.html)

Catholic News Service reported that Ottawa Archbishop Marcel Gervais, who is also chancellor of Saint Paul University, issued a statement August 5, stating that Huels has "announced his intention to leave the Servite order and seek laicization". Archbishop Gervais said, "It is my hope that his voluntary actions today will bring peace to all involved".

Bland had told authorities of his abuse by Huels in 1994 when Huels, a professor of canon law at Catholic Theological Union in Chicago, was made provincial of the Chicago province of the Servite order. Huels stepped down as provincial, but retained his CTU faculty position. Two years later he was hired to teach at Saint Paul's.

Archbishop Gervais told CNS that when Father Huels was hired six years ago as vice-dean of the canon law department the archbishop had not been informed of "any inappropriate behavior in his [Father Huels's] past". The CNS story said that Huels has now admitted his guilt to the archbishop, who said that in June this year "I was made aware of a situation" involving Huels.

However, according to the Washington Post, Bland wrote to the dean of canon law in March, "expressing my concern and wonderment why my perpetrator was teaching at Saint Paul University", and questioning Huels's promotion to vice-dean.

Bland told the Post that the week before the announcement of Huels's "temporary" medical leave, Bland had received two phone calls from Archbishop Gervais, who invited Bland to fly to Canada to discuss the matter, though the archbishop explained that he was not bound by the US bishops' policies. Bland said he told the archbishop that he saw no point in meeting until action was taken against Huels.

More abusers at Saint Paul's
Huels's case is not the first instance of a sexually abusive priest being hired at Saint Paul's, Canadian LifeSite News reported on August 12 ("Action on Sexually Abusive Priests Comes Only After Media Exposure - Ottawa Catholic University Attracts Sexual Abusing Professors", August 12, 2002, http://www.lifesite.net).

A known repeat pederast, Father Barry Glendinning, who had abused children in the 1970s and had been sent for "counseling", was hired by Saint Paul's in the late 1980s, and despite the fact that his abusive past was being reported in the media at the time. Glendinning was not only hired to teach at Saint Paul's, but soon became chairman of the Archdiocese of Toronto's Liturgy Commission. In 1999, some of Glendinning's victims launched civil suits against him. A report by an Ottawa Catholic researcher detailing the abuse was published in January 2000, shortly after which Glendinning withdrew from his post at Saint Paul's.

In May, the Toronto Sun reported that Saint Paul University had scheduled Father George C. Berthold, 67, to teach a course during a summer program. The Sun reported that Berthold decided to drop out after his past was exposed by the Boston Globe. The Globe reported that in November 1995 Berthold was fired from his position as dean of Saint John's Seminary in Brighton, Massachusetts, for making improper advances toward a 19-year-old freshman seminarian. (Cardinal Law is under fire in part because he recommended Berthold despite his sexual abuse of the seminarian.)

On April 3, 2002, Father Michael Guimon, OSM, provincial of the Servites in Chicago, had written a letter concerning a different priestly abuser, stating, "In 1995, the Province formalized its position on this issue by establishing and promulgating formal policies and procedures on sexual misconduct with minors".

Huels undeterred...
After his ouster as Chicago provincial of the Servite order in 1994, Huels spent time in South Africa before taking the appointment at Saint Paul University. Yet the renowned canonist remained an active supporter of homosexual "rights" -- and still used his title. On May 16, 1999, "Equality Illinois" published a list of activists who supported a Gay Rights Bill who had "signed their names stating their belief in justice and equal human rights for all people, regardless of their sexual orientation or gender identity".

His name appears on this list as "Father John Huels, OSM, Prior Provincial, Servite Friars".

(The Gay Rights list is still accessible on the web site of "Equality Illinois" - http://www.ifhr.org/news/other/990516.htm#individuals.)

Power undiminished...
John Huels has been greatly influential in shaping the opinions of liturgists on a wide range of issues -- altar girls, posture and gestures of the people during Mass, so-called "inclusive" language in liturgical translations, placement of tabernacles in churches, roles of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, and even the kind of bread to be used for Mass.

He has published several books and numerous articles in prominent liturgical publications, has lectured throughout the United States at workshops and symposia, and has been on the faculty of liturgical institutes. He is currently listed on the Notre Dame Masters of Arts in theology summer-school faculty. Before going to Saint Paul University in 1996, where he taught seminarians, Huels remained on the faculty at Chicago's Catholic Theological Union where he had taught since 1982.

Huels received his degree in canon law from Catholic University of America. His dissertation director and mentor was Monsignor Frederick McManus, emeritus professor of canon law at CUA.

Monsignor McManus exerted profound and pervasive influence over nearly every aspect of the liturgy after the Second Vatican Council -- from church architecture to music and rubrics and translation.

Huels, like his mentor, believes that the interpretation of liturgical law should determine liturgical practices, and he advocates "legislation by interpretation" of the Church's liturgical rules.

A key principle is that if he finds a particular law unpersuasive, the canonist's objective is to find justifications for interpreting the law in such a way as to legitimize a change in practice, which may conflict with the actual law. This is the "make a path by walking on it" principle of changing or reversing laws one finds objectionable.

If confronted with an unwanted law, Huels repeatedly advises, create a new "custom":

"[A] standard principle in the science of canon law today is that church laws must be interpreted in light of the teachings of Vatican II. For the interpretation of liturgical law, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy has paramount importance. A major emphasis of the constitution is that the liturgical reforms are to encourage and enhance the full, conscious and active participation of the people in all the liturgical rites" (in "Standing During the Eucharistic Prayer", More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy, 1996. Chicago: Liturgy Training Publications, p 22f).

"Any interpretation of a liturgical law that ignores the theology behind the law is not a good interpretation. It is not faithful to the law's true meaning and spirit.", he writes in "Liturgy, Inclusive Language, and Canon Law", an essay in Living No Longer for Ourselves -- Liturgy and Justice in the Nineties (ed. Kathleen Hughes, RSCJ and Mark R. Francis, CSV, 1991. Liturgical Press, pp 138-152) .

But then, "The exact and literal fulfillment of the rubrics and other laws ought not to be the only consideration of the liturgical minister, but rather, how the law can be understood and enfleshed in ways that enhance the worship experience of the assembly. This is the purpose of liturgical law; this is its theological foundation....

"Fidelity to the spirit of the law and the interpretation of the letter of the law in light of its spirit is the 'new way of thinking' about canon law that Pope Paul VI challenged the Church to assume" (Ibid. p 149; emphasis added).

A few quotations of Huels's opinions and reasoning may help illustrate his approach to "interpreting" the law to achieve a desired change.

On sexism and foot-washing
"A literal application of a law that is perceived to be sexist is likely to be opposed or ignored, even if the law's observance is demanded by the bishop. Moreover, the equality of all the baptized is a principle enshrined in the fundamental, constitutional law of the church (canon 208). This principle is based on the divine law, to which merely ecclesiastical (human) law must defer. When a human law is perceived within a society as violating the principle of the equality of the sexes, it is not a good law in that context; it no longer is in the service of the church there. It is then necessary to correct the law in that local church by an appropriate remedy, such as dispensation or the development of a contrary custom (canons 85, 24)".

("Washing Women's Feet" More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy, p 27.)

On improvising use of feminist ("inclusive") language
What does it mean to say that no one on his own initiative may "add, remove, or change anything" in the liturgical books?

In "Liturgy, Inclusive Language, and Canon Law", Huels argues that "minor adaptations in the texts ... to make them more inclusive are by no means against the intent and spirit of canon 846, §1. On the contrary, because the purpose of the law is to promote the good of the community, the use of inclusive language best upholds the spirit of the law" (p 150 - emphasis added).

Canon law, says Huels, "obliges all the faithful to promote social justice [Canon 222, §2], and several other canons in the code are devoted to justice issues and the Church's teaching on the dignity and equality of persons".

Therefore, he reasons, "On the basis of these laws and teachings, one could argue that the use of inclusive language in the liturgy is not only desirable, it is obligatory as well. To the extent that inclusive language is a matter of justice affecting the dignity and equality of Christians, all Catholics are bound to promote its use, since all are bound to promote social justice" (p 141 - emphasis added).

"In the dialectical context of the council", Huels writes, the reason for the restrictive statement against unauthorized liturgical changes "doubtless ... was to reassure the conservative minority who did not want to change anything and who feared abuses.... The [restriction] thereby helped to bring about the consensus that ultimately resulted in the nearly unanimous favorable vote on the constitution as a whole".

But this is not needed today, Huels says, because "the most vociferous opponents of the liturgical reforms have now been discredited and their leaders [Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, et al] excommunicated" (pp 147-148).

"In other words", he explains, "the exact and literal fulfillment of the rubrics and other laws ought not to be the only consideration of the liturgical minister but, rather, how the law can be understood and enfleshed in ways that enhance the worship experience of the assembly" (p 149).

"Canon Law states that no one on personal initiative may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgical books when celebrating the sacraments. This may, at first sight, appear to prohibit individuals from using inclusive language when the official texts do not. However, when the historical and theological contexts of the canon are uncovered, it becomes clear that the spirit of the law, if not its letter, actually favors the use of inclusive language" (p 151).

On the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani
At a workshop to explain the new Missal and the Institutio Generalis, or rules for celebration of Mass, sponsored by the diocese of Owensboro, Kentucky, last August, Huels suggested that it doesn't really apply to the US Church:

"The Roman Missal is primarily written with the Church of Rome and Mass at Saint Peter's in mind.... In Rome, especially at Saint Peter's, the norm is that there are a large number of priests and deacons to celebrate each [Mass] and therefore fewer lay liturgical ministers are present. In comparison to Rome for most Catholic communities in the United States the norm is only one priest and a large number of lay ministers. With this in mind it is easy to see why the Instruction calls for the priest and or deacon to perform several functions that here in the United States the priest would perform along with various lay ministers".

(Quoted in "Meaning and Implementation of the new General Instruction of the Roman Missal Discussed", West Kentucky Catholic, September 2001.)

On Kneeling vs. Standing
"In English-speaking North America, the posture prescribed by the bishops' conferences during the eucharistic prayer is kneeling from the end of the Sanctus through the Amen. However, in some parishes and in many religious communities and seminaries, the assembly stands throughout the eucharistic prayer. Is this an acceptable variation or an abuse of the law?...

"Because posture is a means of participation, what the optimal posture is for the assembly's active participation during the eucharistic prayer needs to be asked. Ritually, standing is the posture that most befits active participation. That is why the presider and deacon stand throughout the prayer; they are clearly active participants. Kneeling is fitting for personal prayer and is associated with the veneration of the reserved sacrament. However, in the eucharistic prayer is not a time for personal adoration of the reserved sacrament but for participation in a communal action, in the church's great prayer of praise and thanksgiving. This is not to say that there can be no participation by the people when they kneel but suggests rather that the posture of standing better signifies their baptismal dignity and better fosters a sense of their own active role in worship; they are not just passive spectators of an action going on at the altar.

"Enough has been said to conclude that standing is no abuse of the law; in fact, it serves better the value of active participation than does kneeling. Although the US bishops did not make the 'ideal' decision in 1969 on posture during the eucharistic prayer, they voted for what they perceived was realistically the best solution at the time. In doing so, they believed that it was desirable to avoid burdening the people with too many liturgical reforms all at once. Their reason is one that should always be considered in adapting the liturgy. The Christian people should not have liturgical changes suddenly and arbitrarily foisted upon them without catechesis at the whim of the pastor or director of liturgy. For example, to force the assembly to stand by removing all the kneelers in church, as has occurred in more than one parish, meets resistance and hostility, not with understanding and acceptance. The latter can only be achieved by thorough catechesis"...

("Standing During the Eucharistic Prayer", More Disputed Questions in the Liturgy, p 23)

On the Gesture of Reverence
The requirement (in IGMR §160) that the conference establish gestures of reverence before people receive Communion need not be enforced, according to Huels:

"Until now, the law recommended a sign of reverence but did not explicitly give the conference of bishops the authority to establish it. What is new in IGMR §160 is the requirement that the conference of bishops establish the appropriate gesture of reverence that is to be recommended to the faithful who communicate standing.

"This action need not be taken immediately. Indeed, the most acceptable reverence to be recommended will probably emerge only after wide consultation....

"In an informal Internet survey that I took among diocesan worship officers and liturgists in the English-speaking world there was general agreement that crossing and holding both hands reverently when receiving in the hand, and folding them when receiving on the tongue, are appropriate signs of reverence. There was unanimity among liturgists in their opposition to genuflection. Not only does it disrupt the communion procession and interrupt the flow of distribution, it presents physical challenges to the elderly and persons with certain disabilities. It is also against the universal law" (original emphasis).

Apparently, for those who genuflect before receiving Communion, a different rule applies, and this "disruptive practice" should be stopped at once:

"They have not been invited to do this but allegedly are following the advice of example given over a television network. Some pastors are already reporting difficulties.... Some official intervention appears to be necessary lest this disruptive practice spread more widely".

("The Revised Institutio Generalis of the Roman Missal and the Conference of Bishops", FDLC Newsletter, December 2000-January 2001, p 3 - original emphasis.)

Lasting Consequences - and two sets of rules
Although Huels has now retired in disgrace, his legacy will likely continue to affect every Catholic worshipper in the English-speaking world for many years.

Given the fact that Huels has violated the moral law for years, it is perhaps not surprising that much of his career has been devoted to rationalizing violations of Church law for the purpose of desacralizing the liturgy. This has been a preoccupation of other liturgists whose sexual misconduct has lately been revealed.

The belief that the "spirit" of the law may be interpreted and "enfleshed" so broadly that the actual law becomes meaningless has become a rigid orthodoxy for some professional liturgists.

And there are two sets of rules: permissive for those who want to overturn traditional norms; severe for those who maintain them.

We have seen the counterpart of this in secular law, where the most essential human right was obliterated by an ominous "penumbra" in the 1973 Supreme Court decision on abortion, while the same "penumbra" protects and defends the rights of libertines.

The history of this era has dramatically shown that an "interpretation" by a few has lasting consequences for the many.


Copyright © 2002 Adoremus: Society for the Renewal of the Sacred Liturgy. All rights reserved.


TOPICS: Catholic; Current Events; Ministry/Outreach; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: abuse; catholiclist; liturgy
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To: Maximilian
I meant "neo-Catholic," sorry.

As in The Justice of the Term Neo-Catholic by Ferrara.

81 posted on 10/14/2002 9:24:38 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Maximilian; ultima ratio
Oh well, when I'm obviously confusing "neoconservative" with "neocatholic" its time for sleep. Sorry for the knee jerk reaction, Max.

God Bless, both of you.

82 posted on 10/14/2002 9:28:56 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Maximilian
How can you be on FreeRepublic and "detest the phrase conservative"? These are useful labels and there's nothing perjorative about them.

I do not find political labels useful in the Catholic realm, as Sursum Corda pointed out recently. See the remarks here: Catholic Caucus: Discussion topic: What is an "orthodox Catholic"??? immediately at the top, re "conservative" and "Papal trads"

83 posted on 10/14/2002 9:50:55 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: dsc
I don't know.

He went toe to toe with Cardinal Bernardin over the "Call to Action" plan Bernardin had and he is perceived by the media as one of the more "conservative" Cardinals, loyal to the Pope. OTOH, the Archdiocese has been a mess for years, the so-called Catholic colleges here are teaching heterodoxy and we have more liberal priests and nuns running around teaching 'new age' type stuff and I just read that the number of marriage annulments granted here are far outnumber any other diocese in the US. I haven't even mentioned our "Catholic" polititians.

He's a great example of why this crisis is not cut and dried.

84 posted on 10/14/2002 9:57:33 PM PDT by american colleen
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To: Polycarp
I read the discussion on the thread you linked, and it contains quite a bit of good material. However, it's also clear that there's not a consensus.

I especially appreciate your point about the potential confusion caused by using the term "conservative" for both political and religious purposes. On the other hand, the word has entered general usage with that meaning. I kind of tend towards the position that the meaning of words is determined by the usage.

We need to figure out what words to use before we can even have an argument!

As for me, I'm happy being called a traditionalist. Go ahead and slap a label on me. I'd say that Latin Mass Magazine represents my point of view better than anything else out there.
85 posted on 10/14/2002 10:06:13 PM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian
As for me, I'm happy being called a traditionalist. Go ahead and slap a label on me. I'd say that Latin Mass Magazine represents my point of view better than anything else out there.

I'll happily wear the "traditionalist" label too.

Latin Mass has taken a new editorial direction lately, and though I'm a subscriber, I do not always agree with this development.

Generally, Fr. Fessio's comments here represent my point of view: Fr. Fessio: THE MASS OF VATICAN II [ And...What the Council Didn’t Say!]

However, I do not agree with his concluding paragraphs, i.e., where he says attachment to the Tridentine Mass is an extreme. Its not. Its normal.

86 posted on 10/14/2002 10:28:06 PM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Sursum Corda
"FWIW, there are some folks who have been dogging Pete ever since he broke with the SSPX many years ago."

Well part of the problem is that after he left he hung around a hard-core Feeneyites like Vin Lewis and Charles Coulombe. In his subsequent handling of the SSPX, he scrapped like Vinny and showboated like Coulombe. As entertaining as I found it, I don't think it endeared him any to his former friends in the SSPX.

"Pete is a big boy and can more than take care of his detractors in a fair and open argument."

Agreed. However, since his subsequent ideological shift toward Le Barroux and the traditional French Benedictines, getting him into a fair and open argument is difficult. He still occasionally comments on the traditionalist front, and he still speaks candidly when doing so, but for the most part he simply ignores anything having to do with the traditionalist movement outside of France or his canon law buddies. Therefore, I doubt you will see him responding here or anywhere else.

Which reminds me, any news on whether he's still translating material from Le Barroux? The last time we spoke he was waiting for Dom Basile to publish the shorter version of his thesis on Vatican II and Religious Liberty.
87 posted on 10/14/2002 11:30:52 PM PDT by Theosis
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To: Polycarp
"And Pete is certainly not an idiot. Like myself, he may just be (relatively) young and naive."

I would suspect the answer is neither. As a friend of his since his SSPX days, I often wondered about his relationship with Huels. From our past conversations, I drew two conclusions:

1) There is a legitimate close friendship between Vere and Huels, which supercedes any ideological differences between the two.

2) There is also a strategic political alliance that extends beyond Vere to include most canonists of a traditionalist persuasion. Basically, Huels has always extended his broad view of the liturgy to include traditionalists as well.

Recall that after Lefebvre went into schism, Huels was the first reputable canonist to call for a broad application of the Ecclesia Dei indult. Most canonists, including Fr. Woestman who was the leading conservative at the time, maintained that the former rigid requirement still applied to the indult.

Huels also was one of the few reputable canonists to defend EWTN's celebration of the Mass facing the altar when their local ordinary tried to coerce them into celebrating the Mass pro populum.

There are numerous other examples within the canon law world where Huels has lent his credibility to traditionalist canonists who would otherwise simply be ignored by their liberal and conservative counterparts.
The end result is that Huels maintains a support base on the right, while traditionalists maintain a credible voice in canonical debate.

This could be why most traditionalist canonists, and not just Vere, while not condoning Huels' actions are rallying behind him right now. On the other hand, this could be the break needed by canonical conservatives in order to galvanize the right and reimpose liturgical uniformity.
88 posted on 10/15/2002 12:36:07 AM PDT by Theosis
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To: Tantumergo
An Ecumenical Council is not susceptible to that sort of "dialetical" approach; unless you think the Holy Spirit coaxed conmmunism in the Council.." <>

CG I don't want to start up that whole debate on the infallibility of Vat II again, but you must agree that the "dialectical" approach has been exploited mercilessly during the Post-Conciliar period, with respect to the interpretation (or misinterpretation) of the Council's documents.

<> I do agree that in the West, especially in America, that voices opposed to the authentic teachings of the Council have drowned out the competent authorities.The opposition comes from the McBrien left and the Lefevbre right. They are fraternal twins opposed to their Father in Rome.<>

I have often heard liberals boasting about the divisions among conservative and traditional Catholics, as being one of the main reasons for their success. John Allen of the NCR is a recent case that comes to mind.

<> Yeah, I think that empty boast is true. They really haven't had success; but I get his point.<>

Lets face it - if you were the devil and you wanted to destroy the Church, where would you attack?

<> I'd attack Unity. That is what Satan has done, and done very well. Right in the text of the NT we see instances of schisms, very early on. Satan knows he can't destroy the Mass or the Catholic Church. He does know he can peel folks away through schisms and heresies. Satan sets before the intellect of those susceptible to Pride the thought "I am the one that will "save" the Church from thus and such.."

From Cerinthus, to Montanus,to Luther, to Lefebvre, there have always been folks willing to "save" the Church from her "errors."

. Satan has an excellent success rate in this area; and, there appear to be an ever-growing number of folks willing to enlist on his side to "save" the Church. "If I don't do it, all is lost," is both Pride and Pleasure; falsehood and flattery; what an intoxicating cocktail..."<>

-the priesthood? -the Mass? -inflaming conflict between those who love the Mass (of whatever rite)? I still say Unity. That is what Jesus prayed for. He knows how susceptible we are to flattery and the frippery of "faithful to eternal Rome" festooning the intellectual fatuousness of the fraternal fanatics of extremism we hear from incessantly.<>

Gnostics, Protestants, Modernists - they have always sought to destroy the Mass first - and the priesthood along with it. It is a certain sign of who they truly serve and they take great delight when the believers fight amongst one another!

<> I think it the case they attacked Unity prior to the Mass. Coached and coaxed by Satan, (He knew the quickest way to sow enmity and confusion was to appeal to our Pride) they, with all good intentions, tried to "save" the Catholic Church from herself by "defending truth."<>

89 posted on 10/15/2002 4:25:01 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: ninenot
As usual, CG, you swallow the fish without looking for the bones first. The Council documents WERE somewhat ambiguous--and you ought to read THe Rhine Flows Into the Tiber if you can't believe Max.

<> I prefer the Popes of the Council and the texts of the Council. My prejudice in favor of the Divinely-Constituted Authorities is unwavering.<>

THe ambiguities were exploited by Mgr. Bugnini (and you can read HIS book for verification) to produce, NOT a liturgy which was an organic growth, but a liturgy which was a break with tradition, which was manufactured and fabricated, and which has been further perverted by, (surprise) perverts-in-charge at the Liturgy Wonk meetings.

<> I will stick with how Pope Paul VI characterised the Roman Missal. Whatever Bugnini desired is, relatively, immaterial. The Catholic Church ALWAYS triumphs over any malign machinations. The Catholic Church promulgated a Real Mass and the Mass is the Mass is the Mass; and, has been the same since Holy Thursday.<>

Knowing history can be quite valuable--and reading more than Jungmann's foo foo dust can also be helpful.

<> LOL I am starting to sense he is not your favorite author.I read Klaus Gamber, Dom Cabrol, Early Church Fathers, Dom Gueranger, and others also. Do they count?<>

90 posted on 10/15/2002 4:35:17 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Theosis
Thank you, sincerely, for these comments regarding Pete. I have exchanged emails with him a number of times and chatted with him online, but I do not know him personally. I highly respect him, and I think this attempt at undermining his views by making this association, and hinting that Pete might have similar problems, simply to negate his message, is sinister at best.

This is a perfect example of the politics of personal destruction engaged in by the far right...insinuate that because Pete is a friend of Huels that Pete too might be gay, or that such association completely negates his considerable academic and intellectual skills.

91 posted on 10/15/2002 7:04:07 AM PDT by Polycarp
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To: Polycarp
"This is a perfect example of the politics of personal destruction engaged in by the far right...insinuate that because Pete is a friend of Huels that Pete too might be gay"

Having met his wife and daughter when he worked for the FSSP, I couldn't help but chuckle at these insinuations as well...
92 posted on 10/15/2002 8:38:56 AM PDT by Theosis
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To: Maximilian
"Extra ecclesiam, nulla sallus

>..just so we know: how do you define 'extra ecclesiam?' By what precise standard is one 'in ecclesia' versus 'extra ecclesiam?"

93 posted on 10/15/2002 5:57:04 PM PDT by ninenot
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To: Catholicguy
I prefer the Popes of the Council and the texts of the Council.

Non-answers don't count. The Council documents were ambiguous.

Better yet, CG, explain me this riddle. When the Document on the Liturgy orders that the revision of the Roman Rite should grow organically from the existing (Tridentine) Rite, and preserve the Latin language, also requiring that the Faithful should sing and say the responses in Latin (those are quotes from the Document)-------------

then howizzit that Paul VI can approve all-English, non-organic, fabricated "novus Ordo???"

Oh, he has the authority, alright. No one denies that (except a certain poster on this thread.)

But it either IS or IS NOT Latin.

It is impossible for you to defend the actions of Paul VI if you state that the Council's mandates should prevail.

You can only defend it on the same grounds that others defend their Bishop's orders NOT to kneel after Communion.

It was an exercise in raw judicial power, I believe--without malice, of course.

94 posted on 10/15/2002 6:12:42 PM PDT by ninenot
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Comment #95 Removed by Moderator

To: HDMZ; Polycarp
Polycarp: I've never seen proof of the assertion, just the assertion itself (seems to me HDMZ has made this claim too, but I don't take at face value anything from a sede)

HDMZ: That rabid, vicious, little piece of filth, Vere, whom you so admire, was an admitted "former" satanist - read STILL IS ONE!!!

Actually Polycarp, HDMZ is correct in stating that Vere is an admitted former teenage satanist. This is often overlooked in his conversion story since he doesn't like to dwell on it. In fact, I was a little dissapointed that he barely gave more than a paragraph to it in his conversion story which was just published.

As for HDMZ's assertion Vere still is one, the operative words in the above are "former" and "teenage". Unless one makes the argument that the SSPX is functional satanism (after all Satan is the father of the "non serviam"), it has probably been over a fourteen years since Vere last practiced. Coincidentally, that's right around the time Lefebvre was excommunicated for consecrating bishops without a papal mandate.

96 posted on 10/15/2002 7:45:52 PM PDT by Theosis
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To: ninenot
Non-answers don't count. The Council documents were ambiguous.

<>Your objection doesn't count. They are not.<>

Better yet, CG, explain me this riddle. When the Document on the Liturgy orders that the revision of the Roman Rite should grow organically from the existing (Tridentine) Rite, and preserve the Latin language, also requiring that the Faithful should sing and say the responses in Latin (those are quotes from the Document)-------------

then howizzit that Paul VI can approve all-English, non-organic, fabricated "novus Ordo???"

<> I don't have that document in front of me but it both calls for a revision of the rite and it allows for the vernacular. That realy does make sense, to me. Local Oridnaries are presumed to both know the needs of their local folks and how best to provide for them.

Pope Paul described the Liturgy as a revision. His teaching on the matter is authoritative, to me.<>

Oh, he has the authority, alright. No one denies that (except a certain poster on this thread.)

But it either IS or IS NOT Latin.

Mebbe, mebbe not. The Document allows for Latin and the vernacular ( I am just going from memory. I will reread it when I get home)

That, btw, is not ambiguity. It is stated for all to see in the Document.<>

It is impossible for you to defend the actions of Paul VI if you state that the Council's mandates should prevail.

<> It is not only possible, it is sensible.<>

You can only defend it on the same grounds that others defend their Bishop's orders NOT to kneel after Communion. It was an exercise in raw judicial power, I believe--without malice, of course

97 posted on 10/16/2002 4:07:35 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Theosis
"the politics of personal destruction engaged in by the far right"

The politics of personal destruction is practiced exclusively by the left. Period.

What you are referring to are legitimate concerns as to the man's objectivity and character.

After all, what kind of a person chooses scumbags for friends?
98 posted on 10/16/2002 7:25:53 PM PDT by dsc
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To: dsc
"After all, what kind of a person chooses scumbags for friends?"

Let me think for a second... prostitutes, lepers, tax collectors, sinners, over-zealous Roman on his way to Damascus in order to muderer more Christians... could it be Jesus of Nazareth?
99 posted on 10/17/2002 1:26:33 PM PDT by Theosis
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To: Theosis
I was really hoping you wouldn't embarrass yourself with that cheap shot.

Our Lord associated with such people to show them the way; he did not flock together with them as a bird of a feather.
100 posted on 10/17/2002 7:33:35 PM PDT by dsc
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