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To: RnMomof7; TotusTuus
Some of the things the Reformers fought were never part of the EO.

Thank you Rnmom.

Totus, I sense that you have no desire to discuss our deep and truly strong differences, as in your fairly long reply to me you did not once address either the links I provided you with or the statements I made about doctrine.
You would do well to re-read the statement above which Rnmom has made so well...

Your sarcasm in suggesting I convert was typical overall, along with the lack of dicussion about the issues, of the catholics here on FR. Attack, divert, use sarcasm, whatever.
Rnmom and I have had discussions about things in which we disagree, such as original sin, and have come away friends and with respect for each other. Probably because we simply discuss doctrine and Scripture, and are able to stay on topic with each other.

Mutual respect goes a long way. Mutual respect does not include, btw, statements that "we are the same church" about other churches, nor does it include statements made in extreme ignorance about the church of another being absorbed into your church soon. And it does not include implying that one who is posting is simply ignorant about their own faith - dismissal - a demeaning way to treat another.
These typical and highly consistent defense mechanisms have brought many of us, of all faiths here on FR, to serious concern about what is happening to the RC church.
There is a new attitude these days and it reeks of arrogance, pride, and delusion. Humility is your friend. May the Lord our God have mercy on you now and forever.

745 posted on 10/11/2002 10:28:32 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema; RnMomof7
Okay, I got to be quick about this, I've got to go...

Totus, I sense that you have no desire to discuss our deep and truly strong differences, as in your fairly long reply to me you did not once address either the links I provided you with or the statements I made about doctrine.

True. I'm very busy right now and this thread is at the bottom of my list of TTD. I've been doing these Posts in little 5 and 10 minute bursts. In truth, I haven't had time to read your links, but will do so. Thank You for them. Maybe I can get back to you later on them...

Your sarcasm in suggesting I convert was typical overall, along with the lack of dicussion about the issues, of the catholics here on FR. Attack, divert, use sarcasm, whatever.

I truly was not trying to be sarcastic. I guess this is part of the problem with computer posts - and not face to face personal contact. I guess I needed much more info concerning you and read into your original comment to me wrong ideas. I don't feel I have attacked anyone, but did get pulled down to a little sarcasm because of my experience with RnMom. Sarcasm isn't all bad, but she is the one trying to attribute and dictate to the Catholic Church false beliefs that She, the Church, doesn't believe. I have answered her questions, or tried to anyway, but she doesn't seem to want to consider mine, or others. Which is a shame. In the setting of another thread, with valid discussion, comparing exegesis of the Holy Scriptures that we both love could be beneficial.

The "Marianism" comment truly shocked me - I really did wonder if you were Orthodox or not at that one. This is, or was, a thread about Mary. Remember? It has went off course to topics that should be on their own threads.

Mutual respect does not include, btw, statements that "we are the same church" about other churches...

I specifically never said that!

...nor does it include statements made in extreme ignorance about the church of another being absorbed into your church soon.

Nor did I say this! I don't know, perhaps you have confused some of my statements with another poster, "collasping" them together? I say this without sarcasm.

And it does not include implying that one who is posting is simply ignorant about their own faith - dismissal - a demeaning way to treat another.

Forgive me. I didn't mean for it to be understood in that manner. As far as "dismissal", see above. This thread was supposed to be about a specific topic concerning Mary the most Holy Mother of God! You're the first Orthodox I've run into, and I understand from you and others that there have been problems... True, I don't want to go there...

Concerning RnMom Post:

Some of the things the Reformers fought were never part of the EO.

Umm, well, Okay. Very general statement here. Some things, probably all of them nondoctrinal issues in the "customs", that is "traditions" with a small "t", category. Care to give details? (But only if they're correct). I'll admit that I, like most others, am not a professional historian, and I will not pretend to reject this statement outright. I suppose a detailed analysis of this would require a thread of it's own. That's where the real learning would occur.

TRUTH is ALWAYS the issue.

Yea, yea, yea,...yawn. I would hope that MerMema is intelligent enough to understand that this is always the case, or is attempt a better word?, in all my posts. RnMom, this was a side issue of a contingent matter in this thread. Why the preachiness? Did I ever say Truth wasn't important?

The issue is not "liturgical "vs "non liturgical."..the issue is the truth of God's word...

You never did get back to me on how you specifically define "word" as per my response concerning St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans. (Oh yea, it was written primarily by the Holy Spirit, least I get lectured again on that - Besides, it's more words to type).

Has it occurred to you that, objectively speaking, within the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches, Liturgical matters are very much issues of God's Truth and Word? This, from the Churches themselves, and not your personal opinions of them, or acceptance of their self belief resulting from their interpretation of the Word?

The Easter Rite was not as affected by the errors of Rome because they were removed from them.

I didn't correct this one because there is an "Easter Rite" and I could get jumped for that. I will take it you mean the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. Rome? Do you mean the Catholic Church? What errors? What errors doctrinally speaking? As a Calvinist you probably can come up with a LOT of "errors". And I think this is what I was getting at with MarMema. Are you now a Church historian to so authoritatively address this in the context of my Posts to MarMema? Care to give details? The Catholic Church is One in Faith! Any "errors" of the Latin Rite would have to affect the Eastern Rites.

I believe the EO is between the Reformers and the RC. Doctrinally in some ways they are closer to the Presbyterians than the RC..in others they are closer to the RC's

Personal opinions that you have, and general too. How well they stand up to objective criteria, truth in the natural order, is another matter. Don't get me wrong, I'm smart enough to know how involved this can get. You give no details. This could easily be another thread. I still say that doctrinally, the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches are much, much closer to each other as opposed to the Calvinists.

MarMema, I don't know what to say. I'm glad you and RnMom get along well. Maybe I will too eventually. No offense to her, and I don't understand, but is she your teacher? Typical Christians would admit that they don't understand the history of the Protestant Reformation well enough to make statements like these, but RnMom just plops answers down at the drop of a hat. Where's her sources for these statements? Maybe she is a trained historian? Are they true because she says they are?

RnMom, I'm sorry about my "attitude problem" with you in this Post, but I'm really tired right now. Your terse treatment of me and others throughout this thread doesn't help either. You don't agree with the teachings, or shall I say, the interpretation of the Word, of the Catholic Church and that is fine. At times you seem to feel that you own the Word and others don't. You ignore certain Posts, questions asked of you, while questioning others in order to preach and lecture to them - not as an equal, as a superior. I've read Posts where you have twisted other posters words and put them in their mouths. You have accused them of "stating" things that they did not in fact state. Maybe I'm taking it all out on you because you're not the only one, others have been worse. Light sarcasm and good wit I can understand on a Religious Forum, but this thread is the pits.

May God Bless You both, Totus Tuus

760 posted on 10/11/2002 3:26:22 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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