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To: TotusTuus; RnMomof7
such as the Orthodox, who have the same Faith as Catholics,

Incorrect. Absolutely incorrect. I have found far more in common with Rnmom and Hank Kerchief, than I have with any Catholic here on FR. I prefer to be lumped with the protestants, thank you.

We have a firm base in Holy Scripture, belief in and support of individual communion with God ( our priests are *not* mediators), no authority of the church as the Catholics view it - the church for us is the people rather than an earthly and transient institution, no papism or infallible humans, no purgatory or Marianism, and many more commonalities with the Protestants.

Catholic Guy recently elaborated quite well on this topic. He said in another thread, "You guys are protestants" to an Orthodox Christian.

404 posted on 10/09/2002 9:39:29 AM PDT by MarMema
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To: MarMema
I agree that the Eastern rite is in may ways closer to the reformers than to the RC...You share a litergical history , but doctrinally you are much more scripitually based.
420 posted on 10/09/2002 10:36:24 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: MarMema
Incorrect. Absolutely incorrect. I have found far more in common with Rnmom and Hank Kerchief, than I have with any Catholic here on FR. I prefer to be lumped with the protestants, thank you.

This whole post has become very mundane for me, not knowing where to start in answering the so many "smear" remarks that have occurred all over the place (not that I'm accusing you, but others...), or whether I should bother. Since I don't have time, and have been making comments "on the fly" while in the middle of work as it is, I personally think my comments will stop. This whole thread should move to the "Never Ending Thread" where it belongs. I would never suggest to anyone to use this forum as a "primary" for learning their Faith and the Faith of others for several reasons, and your comment suggests one.

I suggested that the Catholic Faith and the Orthodox Faith are essentially the same, and I stick by that. Your response indicates your beliefs. It indicates whom you agree with on FR and whom you don't agree with. Which is fine. The only problem is that this forum is not, and cannot be, the measure of what Churches or ecclesial communions officially teach on various subjects and questions. These "bodies" would have to be explicitly involved for that to happen, at least as far as the Catholic Church and, dare I say, the respective Orthodox Churches are concerned. This opens the door for many mistakes to be made, particularly since most lay people are not well trained linguists or historians or theologians, which would be prudent for them to be concerning the direction that many of the comments which are occurring in this thread are moving. They can begin to showcase ignorance more than anything else. This is particularly true for Catholics and Orthodox over Protestants. There is no one "Protestant" Church or ecclesial communion - there are many and often their "authority" rests on a variety of personal interpretations, conflicting many times, of the Holy Scriptures.

Getting to your comments, I'm mystified. You state:

We have a firm base in Holy Scripture.

And the Catholic Church doesn't? She is the original "Bible" Church, after all. History cannot be denied. I would point out to you that unlike Rnmon and Hank Kerchief, you as an Orthodox accept the full Canon of Holy Scripture with the Catholic Church. Also, the general approach of exegesis between Catholics and Orthodox tend to be far similar to each other than to what I would guess is the "Calvinist" approach. Perhaps you do not accept those statements. However, knowing many Orthodox, and being Eastern Rite Catholic myself, I'll safely state that the authority of the Orthodox Churches would.

...belief in and support of individual communion with God ( our priests are *not* mediators)...

I don't know precisely what you are trying to say here and can only guess. I can only say that, yes, the Catholic Church believes and supports communion of all, both corporately and individually, with God. Your tag about Priests not being mediators seems to suggest that you feel that the Catholic Church believes that the laity cannot develop personal piety and spirituality as individuals and have to rely completely on Priests to pray to God for them. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. In any case, it is patently false. The fact that both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches have Priests whereas many of the Protestant posters here apparently belong to Churches or ecclesial communions that don't (there are Protestant Churches that do have Priests!), should be your first clue that maybe, just maybe, Catholics and Orthodox share some very central tenets of Faith together. Like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Divine Liturgy), belief in the Real Presence, all seven of the Sacraments being channels of Christ's Grace, etc. MarMema, both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches agree that these are very important and would head any list of disputes between "us" and the "Calvinist".

...no authority of the church as the Catholics view it - the church for us is the people rather than an earthly and transient institution...

There is a dispute among the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches concerning authority, but the teaching is far more similar among them than to the Calvinist. Both believe in, and have, and recognize each other as having, Apostolic Succession among their Bishops. This is central to their understanding of "Church"; being instituted by Christ on His 12 Apostles that He chose - and granted to preach, teach, and sanctify under His authority. Neither believes primarily that the Church is merely "an earthly and transient institution". Of course, everything Christ did - including establishing His Church - was "for us".

...no papism or infallible humans, no purgatory or Marianism, and many more commonalities with the Protestants.

The Orthodox recognize the Pope as the successor of Peter and, in theory, will give him the title as "first among equals" in relationship to the other historic Patriarchs of the Eastern Church. They also recognize the infallibly pronounced dogmas of the first 7 Oecumenicle Councils of the Church with the Catholic Church. They, in theory, do recognize infallible statements coming from Councils with Eastern and Western Bishops together. The Calvinists, as far as I can tell, reject the whole notion of Apostolic Succession. There are disputes among the Catholic Church and Orthodox concerning the nature of purgatory and authority. They are involved, but needless to say, Orthodox will pray for the dead as do Catholics, and authority is seen as coming from Christ through His Apostles and their successors. Calvinists?

Marianism? Oh, Give me a break! Orthodox give great honor to the Mother of God - the "Theotokos"! Have you never seen an Icon of her in Orthodox Churches? She is always with her Son, pointing to Him. If the Calvinists are going to bash Catholics about Mary, what are they going to do when they see Orthodox kiss these Icons?

Other than that, there are many "commonalities" among all who profess to be Christian: Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants.

I will state again. Essentially, in terms of Doctrine, Catholics and Orthodox have the same Faith. To be honest, their biggest disputes are, and have historically been, far more of a political nature than doctrinal one.

Catholic Guy recently elaborated quite well on this topic. He said in another thread, "You guys are protestants" to an Orthodox Christian.

Can't speak to this, did not read the thread or context in which it was said. Did he say it responding to statements by one individual? I don't know. It seems that it was a personal statement that CG made, and I think he would agree. Being humble, he would recognize that he can make mistakes and misstatements, and most of all, when all is said and done, that his and mine and all statements made on this thread are personal comments that may not necessarily match the correct understanding of Faith held by the Churches or ecclesial communions represented. Particularly when one is speaking on behalf of a Church they do not belong to.

522 posted on 10/09/2002 3:22:22 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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