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Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

Posted on 10/07/2002 1:03:41 PM PDT by Polycarp

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To: nickcarraway
OK. Does the "and power" negate the full of grace?
81 posted on 10/07/2002 10:31:57 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Polycarp
Pray for them, they know not what they do. I am sure that if someone called THEIR mother names, they would not take too kindly to it.

They will know we are Christians by our Love ...

82 posted on 10/07/2002 10:35:48 PM PDT by Gophack
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To: Matchett-PI
Assumption of Mary

By Fr. William P. Saunders
Herald Columnist
(From the issue of 8/15/02)

A Protestant friend asked me about our Catholic belief in the Assumption of the Blessed Mother. - A reader in Sterling

Addressing a jubilant crowd of over 500,000 people packed into St. Peter's Square, Pope Pius XII solemnly defined in Munificentissimus Deus on Nov. 1, 1950, that "the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever-virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory." Although the solemn definition may have been at the midpoint of the 20th century, the belief in the Assumption of our Blessed Mother exemplifies the dynamism of revelation and the Church's ongoing understanding of it as guided by the Holy Spirit.

Granted, the word Assumption does not appear in sacred Scripture. For this reason, many fundamentalists who literally interpret the Bible would have a difficulty with this belief. Nevertheless, we must first pause and reflect on the role of our Blessed Mother in the mystery of salvation, for this provides the foundation for the belief in the Assumption. We firmly believe that from the first moment of her conception, Mary was free of all sin including original sin by a special favor of Almighty God. The Archangel Gabriel recognized her as "full of grace," "blessed among women," and "one with the Lord." Mary had been chosen to be the Mother of our Savior. By the power of the Holy Spirit, she conceived our Lord, Jesus Christ, and through her, true God became also true man: "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (Jn 1:14).

During her lifetime, although the Gospel citations are limited, Mary always presented our Lord to others: to Elizabeth and her son, John the Baptist, who leapt for joy in the womb at the presence of the Lord still in His own mother's womb; to the simple shepherds as well as the wise Magi; and to the people at Cana when our Lord acquiesced to His mother's wish and performed the first miracle. Moreover, Mary stood at the foot of the cross with her Son, supporting Him and sharing in His suffering through her love as only a mother could do. Finally, she was with the apostles at Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit descended and the Church was born. Therefore, each of us can step back and see Mary as the faithful servant of God who shared intimately in the birth, life, death and resurrection of our Lord.

Another important piece of evidence attesting to the Assumption in sacred Scripture is found in the Book of Revelation: "A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and her head a crown of twelve stars" (12:1). This passage is part of the first reading for the Mass for the Solemnity of the Assumption. Notwithstanding the chronological aspect of the text, the Church has interpreted this passage as referring to the Blessed Mother who has been assumed into the glory of Heaven and crowned as Queen of Heaven and Earth, and as Mother of the Church.

For these reasons, we believe that the promises our Lord has given to each of us of sharing eternal life, including a resurrection of the body, were fulfilled in Mary. Since Mary was free of original sin and its effects (one of which is corruption of the body at death), since she shared intimately in the life of the Lord and in His passion, death, and resurrection, and since she was present at Pentecost, this model disciple appropriately shared in the bodily resurrection and glorification of the Lord at the end of her life. (Note that the solemn definition does not specify whether Mary physically died before being assumed or just was assumed; it simply states, "Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life...") The Catechism, also quoting the Byzantine Liturgy, states: "The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians: 'In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death'" (no. 966).

In sum, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of the Second Vatican Council taught, "Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when her earthly life was over, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords, and conqueror of sin and death" (no. 59).

This belief in the Assumption of our Blessed Mother has been longstanding in our Church. We must remember that the early Church was preoccupied with resolving questions about Christ, particularly His incarnation and the hypostatic union (His divine and human natures). However, in addressing these questions, the Church gradually defined the titles of Mary as Mother of God and as the New Eve, and the belief of the Immaculate Conception, all of which form the basis for the Assumption.

In Munificentissimus Deus, Pope Pius XII cited various Church Fathers to trace the longstanding tradition of the belief of the Assumption — St. John Damascene, St. Andrew of Crete, St. Modestus of Jerusalem and St. Gregory of Tours, to name a few. Bishop Theoteknos of Livias (c. 550-650) delivered one of the most comprehensive early sermons concerning the Assumption: "For Christ took His immaculate flesh from the immaculate flesh of Mary, and if He had prepared a place in heaven for the Apostles, how much more for His mother; if Enoch had been translated and Elijah had gone to heaven, how much more Mary, who like the moon in the midst of the stars shines forth and excels among the Prophets and Apostles? For even though her God-bearing body tasted death, it did not undergo corruption, but was preserved incorrupt and undefiled and taken up into heaven with its pure and spotless soul."

St. John Damascene (d. 749) also recorded an interesting story concerning the Assumption: "St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven." In all, the Patristic Fathers defended the Assumption on two counts: Since Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin, she could not suffer bodily deterioration, the result of original sin, after her death. Also, if Mary bore Christ and played an intimate role as His mother in the redemption of man, then she must likewise share body and soul in His resurrection and glorification.

The Byzantine Emperor Mauritius (582-602) established the celebration of the Dormition of the Blessed Virgin Mary on Aug. 15 for the Eastern Church. (Some historians speculate that the celebration was already widespread before the Council of Ephesus in 431.) By the end of the sixth century, the West likewise celebrated the Feast of the Assumption. While the Church first emphasized the death of Mary, gradual shifts in both title and content occurred, so that by the end of the eighth century, the Gregorian Sacramentary had prayers for Assumption Day.

The feast of the Assumption gives each of us great hope as we contemplate this one facet of the beautiful woman of faith, our Blessed Mother. Mary moves us by example and prayer to grow in God's grace, to be receptive to His will, to convert our lives through sacrifice and penance and to seek that everlasting union in the Heavenly Kingdom. In 1973, the National Conference of Catholic Bishops in their letter Behold Your Mother stated, "Christ has risen from the dead; we need no further assurance of our faith. Mary assumed into heaven serves rather as a gracious reminder to the Church that our Lord wishes all whom the Father has given Him to be raised with Him. In Mary taken to glory, to union with Christ, the Church sees herself answering the invitation of the heavenly Bridegroom."

Source,
http://www.catholicherald.com/saunders/02ws/ws020815.htm

83 posted on 10/07/2002 10:38:04 PM PDT by heyheyhey
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To: drstevej
Does the "and power" negate the full of grace?

It's "filled with grace", not "full of grace."

84 posted on 10/07/2002 10:41:21 PM PDT by heyheyhey
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Comment #85 Removed by Moderator

To: RnMomof7
Your answer seems to highlight many historical issues in understanding the Incarnation of Christ and God's overall plan of Salvation History. It also points to the need for a correct understanding, theologically speaking, of who Mary is and her importance in God's plan of Salvation for His Creation.

Gophack wrote:

Without Mary, there would be no Jesus.

You replied (I think):

The Son existed before the foundation of the world as did the plan of salvation (check your bible for that)

You are both right. The Eternal Son, the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, being God, "exists" from all Eternity. In point of fact, God IS Existence and Eternity. And yes, the Holy Scriptures do indicate this.

However, the Incarnation of the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity, meaning true God becoming true Man, more specifically, becoming Jesus, did require Mary. Otherwise He wouldn't be Jesus. In His human nature, He is flesh of her flesh.

You write in reference to Mary as Jesus' Mother:

...but if it was not her it would have been another woman.

And therefore He would NOT be Jesus. Not the Jesus whom we all claim to know and love. Another woman as mother would bring about another different "Christ" - Who doesn't exist.

...She was his earthly mother...

And she remains His Mother, even now! She becomes OUR spiritual Mother as well since we are His brothers and sisters. "Woman, behold your son...behold your Mother..." Understand, the whole point of the Incarnation is that Jesus is one of us now. That Christ has redeemed Creation for all time. He shares in our humanity (which He Created) so that we can share in His Divinity!

God did not need to Create anything, but chose to out of His Goodness in order to manifest His Glory in an external Creation complete with beings created in His image and likeness with free will. Some of those beings, the fallen angels, refused His Grace and tempted other beings, our first parents Adam and Eve, to also reject His Grace, which they promptly did.

God's plan of Salvation involves Him showing His Infinite Love for us, His creatures, by becoming one of us to redeem us. To redeem His Creation through His Creation. He Wills that we actively participate in His plan - to conform our wills with His Will. You should know all this since it is in the Holy Scriptures. You also should know that Jesus Christ is our Saviour and Redeemer! But who, or what, is Jesus?

This question was debated in the early Centuries of Christianity. Some said He was an Angel become Man. Others that He was a ghost and didn't really have a body. Some said He had only one Nature, others that He was two people, one Divine, the other human. The Church, led by the Holy Spirit, proclaimed the dogmas concerning the Incarnation: That Jesus was One Person (the 2nd Person of the Blessed Trinity - True God) with two Natures (Divine and human). The Greek word theotokos, literally 'God-bearer', otherwise 'Mother of God', became the "litmus test" for determining whether or not a person was maintaining the correct understanding of the Incarnation. It had to; His human nature is dependent on her Motherhood.

...how is Worship different than adoration?

Are you referring to the difference between veneration and adoration? The worship of Adoration is due to God alone as Creator and Lord of all Creation, the honor of veneration is given to God's Saints, recognizing His Grace working through them.

86 posted on 10/07/2002 10:49:43 PM PDT by TotusTuus
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Comment #87 Removed by Moderator

Comment #88 Removed by Moderator

To: sandyeggo
I am uncomfortable with the term Co-redemptrix

Remember this is Latin and means "with the Redeemer".

I guess I look at it in this way:

If Mary was good enough for Jesus, then she is good enough for me!

89 posted on 10/07/2002 10:58:42 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: sandyeggo
I'm on your side in this matter. I think having shrines to her is fine as long as there is some form of substitute for worship like incense, and really nice settings, like oak groves, but not everyone seems to have that reverence around here.
90 posted on 10/07/2002 11:02:22 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: RnMomof7
So co redeemer means that Jesus saved with Mary? He does not do it alone?

But would Jesus even have been born without His Mother, Mary? with And remember, conceived by the Holy Spirit!

91 posted on 10/07/2002 11:02:47 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: JesseShurun; drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; theAmbassador; RnMomof7; CCWoody; Jean Chauvin; ...
JS: "but not the most, so take heart"

LOL! Were you referring to one of the worst of the Protestant bashers?:

"I can only conclude that this forum is worthless for true discussions between the sole remaining branches of real Christianity, Orthodox and Catholic.

Sorry if I offend my non-Catholic, non-Orthodox brethren, but frankly I'm fed up with some of the hardened, idiotic bigots on this forum."

310 posted on 6/24/02 7:15 PM Pacific by Polycarp
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/704064/posts

.... 1500 years after Christ, someone came along who was overly scrupulous and could not bear the burden of his guilty conscience. This man was a priest, but could not control his sexual passions. He used some abuses in Christ's Church in a remote corner of Christendom as an excuse upon which to hang his revolt.

So he invented a new false gospel to assuage his guilt and foisted it on the world. Bible books that did not fit his new false gospel were simply removed on his own "authority."

... Then man questioned the authority of scripture itself, and whether God was truly Creator.

All because a man 500 years ago placed his own new false gospel of the "Bible alone" and "private interpretation of scripture" above the authority Christ Himself established as the protection against the destriction of the Gospel message Christ entrusted to His Church.

In 1930 mainstream "Bible only" protestantism fell into apostacy regarding contraception. ..

Furthermore, because mainstream protestantism and "Bible Christianity" in general condones non-procreative contraceptive sex, they have no moral authority upon which to preach against non-procreative homosexual sex. ...

... Sorry if this offends other lurkers. I'm sick of the ignorance and blindness to the brutal reality of the consequences of this so-called reformation/restoration.

52 posted on 12/23/01 11:02 AM Pacific by proud2bRC
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/595511/posts

.... When I left Catholicism, briefly, for "bible only christianity" I quickly realized my error and sought the truth. You should do likewise.

69 posted on 12/23/01 4:29 PM Pacific by proud2bRC
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/595511/posts

**** end excerpts from hundreds ****

Spiritually mature people are also emotionally mature. They are quite confident and settled in their beliefs, and aren't offended or bothered in the least when others "bash" the doctrine they hold dear. In fact, they are quite willing to provide infallible Scriptural back up for all of it. And like the Bereans, they are very willing to search the Scriptures and quite open and willing to learn more from them.

They are also quite willing to be patient and bear with the more emotionally immature, too --- because they realize that it isn't possible that an emotionally immature professing Christian will have gained much in the way of spiritual maturity yet.
92 posted on 10/07/2002 11:11:49 PM PDT by Matchett-PI
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To: Matchett-PI
Indeed I was and his foul mouth just happened to stike me the wrong way tonite.
93 posted on 10/07/2002 11:13:34 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: drstevej; TotusTuus
Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought wonders and great signs among the people. Another immaculate conception?

Acts 6,8 and Luke 1,28 compared in Protestant Bibles

King James:

And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.


Young's Literal Translation:
And Stephen, full of faith and power, was doing great wonders and signs among the people.

And the messenger having come in unto her, said, 'Hail, favoured one, the Lord [is] with thee; blessed [art] thou among women.'


World English Bible:
Stephen, full of faith and power, performed great wonders and signs among the people.

Having come in to her, the angel said, "Rejoice, you highly favored one! The Lord is with you. Blessed are you among women!"

94 posted on 10/07/2002 11:20:21 PM PDT by heyheyhey
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To: Matchett-PI
And bearing with my lesser bros, I just want to commend them for their exaltation of the Virgin Mary to the high places amid the greenery of the bashan oaks. You people have it all wrong-- they don't worship her, but they do pray to her for intercession. If they offer incense, they will be merely following a very old tradition and what's so wrong with tradition? Give me that old time religion I say.
95 posted on 10/07/2002 11:23:07 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: JesseShurun
Give me that old time religion I say.

How about the TRUE religion? I ask.

96 posted on 10/07/2002 11:27:43 PM PDT by heyheyhey
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To: heyheyhey
It was true in them days, and the majority of the people found it so, so it must have been.
97 posted on 10/07/2002 11:29:35 PM PDT by JesseShurun
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To: drstevej
OK. Does the "and power" negate the full of grace

Is a class of oranger juice and water a glass ``full of orange juice?''

98 posted on 10/08/2002 12:46:57 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: drstevej; Matchett-PI; TotusTuus; RnMomof7; CCWoody; sandyeggo; Polycarp; nickcarraway; Siobhan
Ok, what about this verse from Luke:

"And it came about while He said these things, one of the women in the crowd raised her voice, and said to Him, “Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts at which You nursed.”

But Jesus said, “On the contrary, blessed are those who hear the world of God, and observe it.” Luke 11:27, 28

Doesn't Jesus here have an opportunity to support adoration of Mary, but chooses to refute the idea instead?

99 posted on 10/08/2002 1:58:47 AM PDT by ponyespresso
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To: RnMomof7
So co redeemer means that Jesus saved with Mary? He does not do it alone?

No. Co-redemptrix is Latin meaning with the redeemer. The Blessed Virgin Mary helps lead people to Christ. The Blessed Virgin Mary has a unique role in the redemption accomplished by her Son, Jesus Christ, the divine Redeemer.

100 posted on 10/08/2002 2:05:56 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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