Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[xzins]

Poly, setting aside all your arguments with protestants to address the theme of the original post. I heard the co-redemptrix idea a few years back. It struck me then and does now, too, as a direct assault on the Catholic understanding of the Eucharist/Mass. I thought then that the Catholics would be FORCED to reject the theology, because "this is my body and this is my blood" equals "this is His body and this is His blood." It does not equal "this is their body and this is their blood."

I don't know that that argument has been used in opposition to co-redemptrix, but it seems absolutely germane to me. If you wish to destroy the CURRENT catholic understanding of eucharist, then by into co-redemptrix.

I predict this will be rejected.

[TotusTuus]

BTW I believe that the Holy Spirit was present in the early church....but he fled when men sat on the throne instead of Christ

!?!!! WHAT!?!!! YOU actually WROTE THIS???? Are you kidding? With all due respect to all Mormon people that may read this...

And from your Post #574

Unbelievable...that is why the mormons love Catholics..

TALK ABOUT THE COFFEE CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!!!!!!

[xzins]

I was never one to go delving through the old musty posts of freeperdom, but I think you mentioned agressive calvinist and a few others in the same post. Perhaps you were kidding.....who knows.

Yep, my dishwasher is faulty right now. It stops before the cycle is complete and sits full of water on the final rinse/dry.

[Matchett-PI]

"Actually, JMJ333 has sent me some very colorful FRmail today, even griping to JimRob that all I am doing is displaying hatred for Catholics>"

When one clicks on the "religion" forum, on would think the whole forum has been spammed by Catholics. What's funny, though, is the fact that if one doesn't agree with what they write and dares to say so joining in on the conversation, that is the one who is accused of "spamming their threads". JMJ333 is one of the more emotion-driven, thin-skinned ones who flies into purple rages at the drop of a hat.

I think it's funny to watch.

[RnMomof7]

No if you believe that you have to keep laws and traditions and do good works to go to heaven you make God your debtor because he owes you for the fruit of your labor...

[RnMomof7]

Most Protestants believe that knowing God IS a personal experience...We know Him through His word and we know Him through the grace of God..a personal encounter..

A Common expression is "having a personal relationship" with Jesus Christ...In many cases the personal experience preceeds the knowlege through the Bible

[RnMomof7]

The Ark of the covenant had the mercy seat where God "rested" (seen as a pillar of fire or a cloud of smoke) in Hebrew that was called the Kapporet-translated as the place of atonement it is from the same base as the Jewish Yon Kippur ...The blood was poured over that Mercy seat to make atonement..to make me at/one/ment with God...

Are you suggesting that it is Mary that that despenses mercy and judgement? Are you suggesting that Mary held the sold place in the Holy of Holies? That the High Priest had to go to HER for the sins of the Jews?

That makes mary a god ..and I do not think you want to do that

Yes I see the manna as a type of Christ...a type of Gods provision for His people..A type of Gods mercy...

[RnMomof7]

Did Melchizedek offer a sacrifice?

He is a type of Christ ...as a king and Priest...something not usual in Jewish tradition...

[RnMomof7]

His Church


Key words here

[RnMomof7]

Some day you will surprise us and actually have something of substance to say...

[JesseShurun]

I think it's funny to watch.

Cat, I say, I'm sorry but I have to rev up the chainsaw

[JesseShurun]

I like Francis, in fact I named my son Frank. All fuzziness and warmies in your prattle. Now if you could quote some scripture appropriate to idol worshipping and discernment of the Truth from fiction I'd be impressed.

[JesseShurun]

Ask not for whom the gong tolls, it tolls for thee. (Apologies to Ern). I can't think of any deeper love than caring if someone dies spiritually or not, but you will believe what you want to believe. I will go back to telling you pretty little bible tales, about bunnies and lambs, non-scary stuff, even though in the end it will get you killed. After all, all I want is for you to like me. That's the most important thing, that you like me. After all you have little kids and you let them eat ice cream instead of vegetables, and stay home from school because it's no fun, and you just want them to like you.

[JesseShurun]

I sincerely hope so, and I hope it has 5 letters and starts with a B.

[Matchett-PI]

"How could Christians live by the rule of faith, "the Bible alone" when there simply weren't any printed Bibles prior to the invention of the printing press?"

How did they "live by the rule of faith" -- the WORD alone -- when all that was available were the letters, aka Epistles, aka "the WORD of God", being circulated to all the churches from the apostles, when they couldn't be there to teach them directly (orally)?

I think you'll find your answer in the NT as to how God could possibly find a way to be able to teach his elect what they needed to know as his plan of redemption was unfolding.

Its really amazing, isn't it, that in A.D. 367, Athanasius listed the same exact 27 New Testament books (made up of the apostle's letters to the churches) in his Thirty-ninth Paschal Letter that we have today. Hummmmmmmmm.

All canonical books of the OT were written by prophets; none of the apocryphal books were written by any prophets: therefore they are not canonical.

Athanasius says “Our whole scripture is divinely inspired and hath books not infinite in number, but finite and comprehended in a certain canon.” There was, therefore a certain canon by the late 300’s. He then enumerates this, “The canonical books of the OT are two and twenty. Equal to the number as the Hebrew alphabet.”

Jerome plainly rejects all the apocryphal books from the canon. In his Prologus Galeatus he says “As there are twenty and two letters, so there are counted twenty and two books. Therefore the Wisdom of Solomon, and Jesus, and Judith, and Tobit, are not in the canon.” (See the introduction to the Vulgate in his own hand.)

[JesseShurun]

That was a wonderful post on the ARK today by the way. Pink had great spiritual insight. I wonder how many read it.

[JesseShurun]

One more arrow for your quiver. The Jewish sages say that the priests did not bear the ARK. It looked like it, but in reality It carried them as they journeyed.