Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Polycarp]

This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:

Current status of Mary:

Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status. 

The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:

	1. Mary is the Mother of God.
	2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life.

Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19^th and 20^th centuries:

	3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE.
	4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1

In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:

In ancient times:

	St. Antonius (circa 250 - 350): "All graces that have ever been bestowed on men, all came through Mary."
	St. Bernard (1090 - 1153): "[Mary is called] the gate of heaven, because no one can enter that blessed kingdom without passing through her."
	St. Bonaventure (1221 - 1274): "As the moon, which stands between the sun and the earth, transmits to this latter whatever it receives from the former, so does Mary pour out upon us who are in this world the heavenly graces that she receives from the divine sun of justice." 1

1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. ₁

1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. ₁

Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part: 

"Rightly, therefore, the Fathers see Mary not merely as passively engaged by God, but as freely cooperating in the work of man’s salvation through faith and obedience. For as St. Irenaeus says, she being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert with him in their preaching ...'death through Eve, life through Mary.' This union of the mother with the son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ’s virginal conception up to his death" 2

"Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. By her maternal charity, she cares for the brethren of her Son, who still journey on earth surrounded by dangers and difficulties, until they are led into their blessed home. Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress and Mediatrix." 3

1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." ₄

1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." ₁

1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." ₁

Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.

Petition drive to promote an infallible statement:

Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." ₃ Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:

	Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption.
	Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces.
	Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments.

If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. _5,6

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

When I attended the Catholic Church I didn't know anyone who read the Bible and don't remember ever being encouraged to.

This is the way I saw it too. and my experience went one step farther. I was actually discouraged from reading it once when I had picked it up and was looking thru it. I was told it would confuse me so not to do it. This from my mother.

I consider my authority Jesus and the Bible the inspired Word of God. It is to this authority that I put everything to the test to determine what is true. I don't just take anyone's word on issues of doctrine. Good tradition is good. Good teaching is good. What makes it good is when it complements the Bible. What makes it bad is when it contradicts the Bible.

Good advise that all should follow:)

Lord, I pray for wisdom and correct discernment for myself and all those who read these posts. This, so that we can glorify you in the mannor you intended when you created us. Thank you Jesus for taking our sins and dying that horrible death, the death we deserve, so that we may have eternal life. You are my Lord and Savior, and in Your name I pray to the Father. Amen.

Amen, again:)

Becky

[TotusTuus]

Incorrect. Absolutely incorrect. I have found far more in common with Rnmom and Hank Kerchief, than I have with any Catholic here on FR. I prefer to be lumped with the protestants, thank you.

This whole post has become very mundane for me, not knowing where to start in answering the so many "smear" remarks that have occurred all over the place (not that I'm accusing you, but others...), or whether I should bother. Since I don't have time, and have been making comments "on the fly" while in the middle of work as it is, I personally think my comments will stop. This whole thread should move to the "Never Ending Thread" where it belongs. I would never suggest to anyone to use this forum as a "primary" for learning their Faith and the Faith of others for several reasons, and your comment suggests one.

I suggested that the Catholic Faith and the Orthodox Faith are essentially the same, and I stick by that. Your response indicates your beliefs. It indicates whom you agree with on FR and whom you don't agree with. Which is fine. The only problem is that this forum is not, and cannot be, the measure of what Churches or ecclesial communions officially teach on various subjects and questions. These "bodies" would have to be explicitly involved for that to happen, at least as far as the Catholic Church and, dare I say, the respective Orthodox Churches are concerned. This opens the door for many mistakes to be made, particularly since most lay people are not well trained linguists or historians or theologians, which would be prudent for them to be concerning the direction that many of the comments which are occurring in this thread are moving. They can begin to showcase ignorance more than anything else. This is particularly true for Catholics and Orthodox over Protestants. There is no one "Protestant" Church or ecclesial communion - there are many and often their "authority" rests on a variety of personal interpretations, conflicting many times, of the Holy Scriptures.

Getting to your comments, I'm mystified. You state:

We have a firm base in Holy Scripture.

And the Catholic Church doesn't? She is the original "Bible" Church, after all. History cannot be denied. I would point out to you that unlike Rnmon and Hank Kerchief, you as an Orthodox accept the full Canon of Holy Scripture with the Catholic Church. Also, the general approach of exegesis between Catholics and Orthodox tend to be far similar to each other than to what I would guess is the "Calvinist" approach. Perhaps you do not accept those statements. However, knowing many Orthodox, and being Eastern Rite Catholic myself, I'll safely state that the authority of the Orthodox Churches would.

...belief in and support of individual communion with God ( our priests are *not* mediators)...

I don't know precisely what you are trying to say here and can only guess. I can only say that, yes, the Catholic Church believes and supports communion of all, both corporately and individually, with God. Your tag about Priests not being mediators seems to suggest that you feel that the Catholic Church believes that the laity cannot develop personal piety and spirituality as individuals and have to rely completely on Priests to pray to God for them. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. In any case, it is patently false. The fact that both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches have Priests whereas many of the Protestant posters here apparently belong to Churches or ecclesial communions that don't (there are Protestant Churches that do have Priests!), should be your first clue that maybe, just maybe, Catholics and Orthodox share some very central tenets of Faith together. Like the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass (Divine Liturgy), belief in the Real Presence, all seven of the Sacraments being channels of Christ's Grace, etc. MarMema, both the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches agree that these are very important and would head any list of disputes between "us" and the "Calvinist".

...no authority of the church as the Catholics view it - the church for us is the people rather than an earthly and transient institution...

There is a dispute among the Catholic Church and Orthodox Churches concerning authority, but the teaching is far more similar among them than to the Calvinist. Both believe in, and have, and recognize each other as having, Apostolic Succession among their Bishops. This is central to their understanding of "Church"; being instituted by Christ on His 12 Apostles that He chose - and granted to preach, teach, and sanctify under His authority. Neither believes primarily that the Church is merely "an earthly and transient institution". Of course, everything Christ did - including establishing His Church - was "for us".

...no papism or infallible humans, no purgatory or Marianism, and many more commonalities with the Protestants.

The Orthodox recognize the Pope as the successor of Peter and, in theory, will give him the title as "first among equals" in relationship to the other historic Patriarchs of the Eastern Church. They also recognize the infallibly pronounced dogmas of the first 7 Oecumenicle Councils of the Church with the Catholic Church. They, in theory, do recognize infallible statements coming from Councils with Eastern and Western Bishops together. The Calvinists, as far as I can tell, reject the whole notion of Apostolic Succession. There are disputes among the Catholic Church and Orthodox concerning the nature of purgatory and authority. They are involved, but needless to say, Orthodox will pray for the dead as do Catholics, and authority is seen as coming from Christ through His Apostles and their successors. Calvinists?

Marianism? Oh, Give me a break! Orthodox give great honor to the Mother of God - the "Theotokos"! Have you never seen an Icon of her in Orthodox Churches? She is always with her Son, pointing to Him. If the Calvinists are going to bash Catholics about Mary, what are they going to do when they see Orthodox kiss these Icons?

Other than that, there are many "commonalities" among all who profess to be Christian: Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants.

I will state again. Essentially, in terms of Doctrine, Catholics and Orthodox have the same Faith. To be honest, their biggest disputes are, and have historically been, far more of a political nature than doctrinal one.

Catholic Guy recently elaborated quite well on this topic. He said in another thread, "You guys are protestants" to an Orthodox Christian.

Can't speak to this, did not read the thread or context in which it was said. Did he say it responding to statements by one individual? I don't know. It seems that it was a personal statement that CG made, and I think he would agree. Being humble, he would recognize that he can make mistakes and misstatements, and most of all, when all is said and done, that his and mine and all statements made on this thread are personal comments that may not necessarily match the correct understanding of Faith held by the Churches or ecclesial communions represented. Particularly when one is speaking on behalf of a Church they do not belong to.

[kingcanuteus]

I went to a marriage ceremony recently. The priest said that if all the Bibles were dumped in the trash tomorrow we would still have the fullness of the Bible through the celebration of the Mass.

Since the local priest is the main face of the church, it is no wonder that the average Catholic is apathetic towards digging into the Word of God. Developing a intimate relationship with God is reduced to putting in time at the Mass.

[Irisshlass]

drstevej is Pope for his church and the_doc is Pope for Rnmom...

I did think doc was mama's "big gun".

[TotusTuus]

So then you agree with the Calvinists with predestination and election?

I cannot say. Which Calvinist are you talking about? You will have to specify precisely what you mean by "predestination" and "election".

If it helps, God knows all things in His Eternity. Time is a part of His Creation, so that, what for us His creatures is the end of time, is a present reality to God. He already Knows those who are "saved" and who, if any, are not. From our perspective, we all still need to freely choose to persevere constantly in His Grace to be saved.

We are all condemned to Hell except for the Sacrifice of Christ. God Wills that all men be saved and offers His Grace, through the Infinite merits of Christ's most Holy Passion, to all so that they indeed may be saved. Other than that, all I can say is that no one need be lost for all eternity. We should all hope, per Christ's command to Love, that Hell will be empty at the end of time. Anybody who freely rejects God's Grace is a fool indeed!

[drstevej]

***drstevej is Pope for his church ***

Actually, we have three teaching pastors and 11 elders. No king but Jesus!

[TotusTuus]

The bible tells us where we get faith from... DUH!!!...do you know where it is?

I think I answered this already in other posts.

Or, on second thought, after typing below, I came back up to answer this because I think I now know the game you are playing. It's a dumb game. Are you taunting me to see if I know where it is in the Bible? Okay, I'm running around in surgery (I see "RN" in your name) and I don't have the Holy Scriptures handy, but...

In Romans, I think, among other things, St. Paul tells us that Faith comes from hearing the word of God preached to us. And that is precisely the reason that He established His One Church on the Twelve Apostles. They were to authoritatively preach the kerygma of the Life, atoning Death, and Ressurrection of Christ. They still do through their successors - something about Christ saying "I am with you always, to the close of the ages".

St. Paul throughout his Epistles states many things about Faith including how one is to grow in it - 'attain full unity of Faith and knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood, to the measure of fulness of stature of Christ' in Ephesians(?). Sadly, we clearly are not there, as this thread demonstrates. But consider that statement and how it is written to the whole community, the Church, at Ephesis. Not to individuals to go off on their own and read it and live it apart from the Church. He calls us "sons of God through Faith" in Galatians. Tell me, who is our Mother if Jesus is our brother and God our Father?

Heehee, "Preach", an oral transmission. St. Paul says many other things in his Epistles concerning what the Word of God is - including holdings fast to the Traditions handed on to believers, whether written or oral. I don't pretend that you would agree, but I merely state it to show you that Catholics believe that the Word of God is found in the Holy Scriptures and Sacred Tradition. They are, if you will, flip sides of the same coin. Technically, the Holy Scriptures are a subset of Sacred Tradition, but I won't go there... Both are the Infallible Word of God and are to be believed by Faith for those who hear. They do not contradict one another nor can they. This teaching has been believed from the beginning of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, notwithstanding ridiculous claims to the contrary, whose belief is historically verifiable. It was not "invented" in the Middle Ages. And it is "biblical". If you don't share this Faith, fine. I cannot judge you.

If it falls from heaven with no source then do all men have an equal amount of faith?

You seem to have confused the spiritual nature of Faith with having material properties, as if it were rain. God gives His Grace, and Faith through it, as He sees fit. We, upon receiving it, have the freedom to reject or accept it. In accepting it, and thereby being made holy (in "friendship with God" so to speak), with the Life of God in us, we can then proceed to choose to grow in it, even (hold your breath! Don't faint now!) meriting more Grace from God through our actions and sacrifices offered to God because of Love for Him. This is all covered, of course, by St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans. (Doh!, This is what she was asking above, why didn't I see it! He!!, at times I think Romans is the Bible for Protestants!)

Is all faith equal in effect?

Do we all have an "equal amount" of Grace or Faith from God and are they equal in their effects? Of course not! Take Mary His most Holy Mother for example...!!!!!!!!!!!!

After seeing some of your other posts - it's impossible for me to read through the thread at times and then only in small dosages - I don't know if it is wise to answer you or some of the others on this thread because of many (clear throat) "uncharitable" comments you've made to others. I posted to someone else that I thought this should all move over to the "Never Ending Thread", where it belongs. Or create a new one to discuss, or fight about, these issues elsewhere for those who want to. Personally, I consider it all, at best, worthless. This is no way to learn about other Faiths, and some of the slander and ignorance is incredible. I can respect that others believe differently. I can accept that, even if I may not accept, by Faith, the origin of their beliefs. For example, I don't believe that the Book of Mormon is the Word of God - But Mormons do. If I want to discuss their Faith with them, I will do so charitably and allow the Grace of God to "fall" where it may. I will not misrepresent them or their beliefs to others. Besides, I'm a Catholic, and as you and others have pontificated on this thread, I can't possibly know anything about the Bible /sarcasm>. The Catholic Church is the original "Bible" Church is all I can say. We have the Holy Scriptures because of Her.

My question is why? Why all the ugliness and sarcasm? From Corinthians we all know the famous quote about the three Theological Virtues: 'If I have Faith to move mountains, but no Love, I am nothing' (*Note: All quotes from memory, so don't quibble about accuracy). Take all the Faith God gives you, but realize it is only meant to lead to the Pure Charity of God in Heaven, at which point Faith will no longer be needed.

[RnMomof7]

drstevej is Pope for his church and the_doc is Pope for Rnmom...
I did think doc was mama's "big gun"

Did that make you feel better and did it prove your doctrine correct?

[TotusTuus]

This is from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, in Article 9, Paragraphs 816-822:

The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter's pastoral care, commissioning him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church, constituted and organized as a society in the present world, subsists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him."267


The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."268
Wounds to unity

817 In fact, "in this one and only Church of God from its very beginnings there arose certain rifts, which the Apostle strongly censures as damnable. But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame."269 The ruptures that wound the unity of Christ's Body - here we must distinguish heresy, apostasy, and schism270 - do not occur without human sin:


Where there are sins, there are also divisions, schisms, heresies, and disputes. Where there is virtue, however, there also are harmony and unity, from which arise the one heart and one soul of all believers.271
818 "However, one cannot charge with the sin of the separation those who at present are born into these communities [that resulted from such separation] and in them are brought up in the faith of Christ, and the Catholic Church accepts them with respect and affection as brothers . . . . All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."272

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Toward unity

820 "Christ bestowed unity on his Church from the beginning. This unity, we believe, subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time."277 Christ always gives his Church the gift of unity, but the Church must always pray and work to maintain, reinforce, and perfect the unity that Christ wills for her. This is why Jesus himself prayed at the hour of his Passion, and does not cease praying to his Father, for the unity of his disciples: "That they may all be one. As you, Father, are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us, . . . so that the world may know that you have sent me."278 The desire to recover the unity of all Christians is a gift of Christ and a call of the Holy Spirit.279

821 Certain things are required in order to respond adequately to this call:

- a permanent renewal of the Church in greater fidelity to her vocation; such renewal is the driving-force of the movement toward unity;280

- conversion of heart as the faithful "try to live holier lives according to the Gospel";281 for it is the unfaithfulness of the members to Christ's gift which causes divisions;

- prayer in common, because "change of heart and holiness of life, along with public and private prayer for the unity of Christians, should be regarded as the soul of the whole ecumenical movement, and merits the name 'spiritual ecumenism;"'282

- fraternal knowledge of each other;283

- ecumenical formation of the faithful and especially of priests;284

- dialogue among theologians and meetings among Christians of the different churches and communities;285

- collaboration among Christians in various areas of service to mankind.286 "Human service" is the idiomatic phrase.

822 Concern for achieving unity "involves the whole Church, faithful and clergy alike."287 But we must realize "that this holy objective - the reconciliation of all Christians in the unity of the one and only Church of Christ - transcends human powers and gifts." That is why we place all our hope "in the prayer of Christ for the Church, in the love of the Father for us, and in the power of the Holy Spirit."288

[KennyV]

You have to admit, the ugliness comes from both sides...

[TotusTuus]

You have to admit, the ugliness comes from both sides...

I'm afraid to read through it all to verify, but I'm also afraid the result is I agree.

[RnMomof7]

Interesting that you view the following as ugliness and sarcasm?

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The bible tells us where we get faith from do you know where it is?

If it falls from heaven with no source then do all men have an equal amount of faith? Is all faith equal in effect?
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The Catholic Church is the original "Bible" Church is all I can say. We have the Holy Scriptures because of Her.

We have the scripture because of the Holy Spirit

If Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God (as scripture tells us)...most Catholics have no opportunity to receive the gift of faith.The majority of Catholics see going to mass and communion as enough . The brief readings and the ten minute sermons are not the "highlight" so they are only half heard..(ask any Priest how many can tell him on Tuesday what Sundays read was)

Now scripture does not say Faith comes by preaching the word it says it comes by the word.

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (this does not mean one must hear the word with your ears..it might be read in personal study ..but "hear" it with spiritual understanding)

Faith is necessary to believe..but the Grace to be saved is in the preaching of the word

1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

So the reading of scripture and a clear presentation of it in preaching is Gods plan...not mine...not Calvinists or Arminians ..Gods plan

The Catholic Church has placed the means of Faith and of grace on the bottom of the list of spiritual importance. The fact that there are Catholics saved every day proves the sovereignity of God ...cause most are not getting it in the church...

[TotusTuus]

...I would expect a firestorm of comment from non-Catholic FReepers when they see this.

I see you are a Prophetess...

[Irisshlass]

<>and my friend you have no clue which ones are and which ones are not true because you discount the word of God <>

Thats a start...then you do recognize the authority of apostle teaching.

How can I discount the word of God? Your statement hurts my brain...My Church put the Bible together...they decided what books belonged in the bible...how did they do this? By he teachings handed down to them by the apostles...Gnostic, contrary to what you believe is apostolic tradition, was rejected because it did not agree with apostolic tradition...The Church made an infalliable decision..Sola scriptura fails...because you can't from scripture alone show what books should be in the bible...

[RnMomof7]

The OT canon was closed before Christ was born...and the New Testament was written and assembled under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit..

By discounting the word of God I mean it has little more revelance that the phone book (kidding here...)

Actually what I meant was you give tradition the same or greater weight than scripture...

We all have "tradition" but most churches take their doctrinal tradition from Scripture..and they look at the inspired scripture to affirm it

You do not have any way to affirm the traditions and non scriptural doctrine you hold.

[Irisshlass]

nothing remains but the city on 7 hills and a symbolic authority...

I caught this..you need to reread because that 'whore' persecuted apostles and prophets..

"If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household" (Matt. 10:25). "If the world hates you, know that it has hated me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world . . . the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you" (John 15:18–20).

[Irisshlass]

Did that make you feel better and did it prove your doctrine correct?
I did think doc was mama's "big gun"

When OP started the thread on the Eurcharist...I actually thought you were bringing out the big gun...lol...no way intended as a personal attack...I have big guns too, but they already have stated I would have to pay for heart medicine inorder for them to post here..:)

[Desdemona]

Thank you. I had a splitting headache when I wrote that, so that any of it made sense was a miracle.

[Irisshlass]

I liked your post you pinged me on...in your own words...precious...and breath of fresh air...not the continual extensive long pasted posts that you have to cut your way through in a middle of a jungle..