Posted on 10/07/2002 1:03:41 PM PDT by Polycarp
This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:
Current status of Mary:
Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status.
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
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1. Mary is the Mother of God. |
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2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life. |
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
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3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE. |
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4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1 |
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
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In ancient times:
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1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1 | ||||||
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1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1 | ||||||
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Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part:
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1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4 | ||||||
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1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1 | ||||||
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1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1 |
Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.
Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:
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Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption. |
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Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces. |
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Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments. |
If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. 5,6
Atoning is not Christ's sacrifice to make. That is ours. Christ's sacrifice was the ultimate one, one which none of us can ever repay - he gave his life for us. The least we can do is his will.
We know who, but what did He give His life for? Why was it necessary to die? If I throw myself in front of a car on the freeway and leave a note for my wife saying I did it for her, that's not sacrifice. That's suicide. It is devoid of any noble reason. So clearly there must have been a PURPOSE for Christ to have died. If He did not die for a purpose equitable to us, we are not in any way indebted to Him. The sacrifice was to atone for the sins of the world. "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." How are we tied to that sacrifice? By faith. Obedience is born of that faith, not vice versa. Pharisees were all about obeying the Law, but without the faith they were an offense.
To be continued later...
Protestants find clearly stated in scripture that we are saved by the Blood of Jesus Christ...no add ons.....not communion..not baptism....not the pope...not by good works and no purgatory ......In other words the word of God is VERY clear on the means of Salvation...for everyone but Catholics
Now you are welcome to work your way to heaven if you choose..but you will never be good enough
More abortions are preformed on Catholics than Protestants last stats I saw.....Catholics play word games and drop coins in the popes coffer to get an "annulment"...Birthcontrol? So how many kids you got CG? The average RC family in our area is 2 or 3...and that aint no accident...
<>< It is all about being double minded:>)
Naw God just put the keys in the reformers pockets:>)
Naw I am not the ark of the covenant...nor am I co redeemer...
No godess am I
Agree 100%:)
Becky
.I do not doubt it was a speech delievered to Catholics. His Reformed Presbyterians caught the "error" and would not agree to his teachings
What I said was he attempted to "teach" that stuff to a Presbyterian church that saw it for what it was...
Becky
Consider the woman crowned with twelve stars. There is a difficulty with assuming that the woman directly represents the Church: the crown of stars (the twelve tribes or Apostles) is outside of the woman (who represents the Church) and separate from the woman. Catholics consider Mary the saint par excellence ("humanity's solitary boast") so taken together, the image of the woman (Mary, Mother of God) and the crown of twelve stars (the twelve Apostles) better represents the Church than the woman considered separately. As the Catholic Encyclopedia says, "Mary is both a figure of the Church, and its most prominent member."
At least part of the verses refer to the mother whose son is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; according to Psalm 2:9, this is the Son of God, Jesus Christ, Whose mother is Mary.
* It was Mary's son that "was taken up to God, and to his throne" at the time of His Ascension into heaven.
* The dragon, or the devil of the earthly paradise (cf. Apocalypse 12:9; 20:2), endeavoured to devour Mary's Son from the first moments of His birth, by stirring up the jealousy of Herod and, later on, the enmities of the Jews.
* Owing to her unspeakable privileges, Mary may well be described as "clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars".
* It is true that commentators generally understand the whole passage as applying literally to the Church, and that part of the verses is better suited to the Church than to Mary. But it must be kept in mind that Mary is both a figure of the Church, and its most prominent member. What is said of the Church, is in its own way true of Mary. Hence the passage of the Apocalypse (12:5-6) does not refer to Mary merely by way of accommodation [108], but applies to her in a truly literal sense which appears to be partly limited to her, and partly extended to the whole Church. Mary's relation to the Church is well summed up in the expression "collum corporis mystici" applied to Our Lady by St. Bernardin of Siena. [109]
So then is the ark Israel...the Church and Mary?
In a sense Israel was the Ark of the Ark of the Covenant since the Ark was entrusted to Israel's care. Can the Church be the Ark of the New Covenant? In the sense that Mary (the Ark of the New Covenant) was entrusted to the care of the Church (Jesus entrusts Mary to John at Calvary), the Church can be considered the Ark of the Ark of the New Covenant.
But the type principally applies to Mary.
Confusingly, Noah's Ark was the type for the Church which is the New Ark.
So the blood of Jesus is ineffective..it has no power aside from your good works?
My Bible tells me Hbr 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of [our] faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Past tense..a completed act
Atoning is not Christ's sacrifice to make. That is ours. Christ's sacrifice was the ultimate one, one which none of us can ever repay - he gave his life for us. The least we can do is his will.
The atonement was Christs to make..no man can pay the price..if he could why would God come down here and suffer himself..only HE could be the propitation
Rom 5:11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Past tense
I'm sure she does. Regularly. She already had all the grace which we, in our lives, try to receive.
Do you make God your debtor? He owes your something? You do good so he owes you grace? I thought grace was Gods unmerited favor ????
Can I join your movement? I usually refer to the "Protestant Revolution" rather than the "Protestant Reformation."
Becky
Yea well cg does make ya go in circles:>) ..The fact is I have Catholic family and friends and they all have some things they accept and some things they don't...Some feel stronger on some points and some on others...
The difference is that Protestants find a church with like minded people rather than tough it out..
Mary is the Church.
The Church is the Ark you get in to get saved.
Mary saves us.
The Church saves.
The Church is a big building, the bigger the better.
The Church is made up of believers. (in what, who knows? and who cares? it SAVES!)
Believers save.
Themselves and each other.
Therefore the believers are the Ark.
The believers are then the Saviors.
The Savior is God.
Believers are God.
Thanks to you and Quinas fan and Saint Calvin, I have seen the light.
your devoted disciple, His Emminence Jesse Mary Joseph 1st
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