Current status of Mary [Re: Cardinal Ratzinger Does Not Foresee Approval of “Co-redemptrix”]

[Desdemona]

You answered your own questions whether you realize or not.

One thing that is getting lost in the translation is that in RC teaching, Salvation is not realized until we have passed to our eternal reward. That's the goal. No one is just "saved" because they read the bible and believe what it says. There's a lot more involved.

And who, exactly, are the "elect"? Everyone is invited. That would mean that all people are the elect. Whether or not any one person partakes is a matter of free will, not God's.

And I guess I don't understand why, when God sent His only Son to us, he would have chosen just anyone to be the vessel of passage.

[RnMomof7]

Because it says so in scripture..but I know you will want to refute this..I'm really tired and giggly right now to debate it..

NO no fight the words of Jesus and Paul win...

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

The problem is all tradition are NOT true..and my friend you have no clue which ones are and which ones are not true because you discount the word of God

[RnMomof7]

The "woman" in that passage is not Mary..like so much of Revelation is is symbolic

Read this and you will see Mary does not "fit" the prophecy

THE REVELATION
OF ST. JOHN THE DIVINE
Commentary by A. R. FAUSSETT

CHAPTER 12

      Rev 12:1-17 . VISION OF THE WOMAN, HER CHILD, AND THE PERSECUTING DRAGON.

      1. This episode ( Rev 12:1 - 15:8 ) describes in detail the persecution of Israel and the elect Church by the beast, which had been summarily noticed, Rev 11:7-10 , and the triumph of the faithful, and torment of the unfaithful. So also the sixteenth through twentieth chapters are the description in detail of the judgment on the beast, &c., summarily noticed in Rev 11:13, 18 . The beast in Rev 12:3 , &c., is shown not to be alone, but to be the instrument in the hand of a greater power of darkness, Satan. That this is so, appears from the time of the eleventh chapter being the period also in which the events of the twelfth and thirteenth chapters take place, namely, 1260 days ( Rev 12:6, 14 Rev 13:5 ; compare Rev 11:2, 3 ).
      great--in size and significance.
      wonder--Greek, "sign": significant of momentous truths.
      in heaven--not merely the sky, but the heaven beyond just mentioned, Rev 11:19 ; compare Rev 12:7-9 .
      woman clothed with the sun . . . moon under herfeet--the Church, Israel first, and then the Gentile Church; clothed with Christ, "the Sun of righteousness." "Fair as the moon, clear as the sun." Clothed with the Sun, the Church is the bearer of divine supernatural light in the world. So the seven churches (that is, the Church universal, the woman) are represented as light-bearing candlesticks ( Rev 1:12, 20 ). On the other hand, the moon, though standing above the sea and earth, is altogether connected with them and is an earthly light: sea, earth, and moon represent the worldly element, in opposition to the kingdom of God--heaven, the sun. The moon cannot disperse the darkness and change it into-day: thus she represents the world religion (heathenism) in relation to the supernatural world. The Church has the moon, therefore, under her feet; but the stars, as heavenly lights, on her head. The devil directs his efforts against the stars, the angels of the churches, about hereafter to shine for ever. The twelve stars, the crown around her head, are the twelve tribes of Israel [AUBERLEN]. The allusions to Israel before accord with this: compare Rev 11:19 , "the temple of God"; "the ark of His testament." The ark lost at the Babylonian captivity, and never since found, is seen in the "temple of God opened in heaven," signifying that God now enters again into covenant with His ancient people.****** The woman cannot mean, literally, the virgin mother of Jesus, for she did not flee into the wilderness and stay there for 1260 days, while the dragon persecuted the remnant of her seed ( Rev 12:13-17 ) [DE BURGH]. *******The sun, moon, and twelve stars, are emblematical of Jacob, Leah, or else Rachel, and the twelve patriarchs, that is, the Jewish Church: secondarily, the Church universal, having under her feet, in due subordination, the ever changing moon, which shines with a borrowed light, emblem of the Jewish dispensation, which is now in a position of inferiority, though supporting the woman, and also of the changeful things of this world, and having on her head the crown of twelve stars, the twelve apostles, who, however, are related closely to Israel's twelve tribes. The Church, in passing over into the Gentile world, is (1) persecuted; (2) then seduced, as heathenism begins to react on her. This is the key to the meaning of the symbolic woman, beast, harlot, and false prophet. Woman and beast form the same contrast as the Son of man and the beasts in Daniel. As the Son of man comes from heaven, so the woman is seen in heaven ( Rev 12:1 ). The two beasts arise respectively out of the sea (compare Dan 7:3 ) and the earth ( Rev 13:1, 11 ): their origin is not of heaven, but of earth earthy. Daniel beholds the heavenly Bridegroom coming visibly to reign. John sees the woman, the Bride, whose calling is heavenly, in the world, before the Lord's coming again. The characteristic of woman, in contradistinction to man, is her being subject, the surrendering of herself, her being receptive. This similarly is man's relation to God, to be subject to, and receive from, God. All autonomy of the human spirit reverses man's relation to God. Woman-like receptivity towards God constitutes faith. By it the individual becomes a child of God; the children collectively are viewed as "the woman." Humanity, in so far as it belongs to God, is the woman. Christ, the Son of the woman, is in Rev 12:5 emphatically called "the MAN-child" (Greek, "huios arrheen," "male-child"). Though born of a woman, and under the law for man's sake, He is also the Son of God, and so the HUSBAND of the Church. As Son of the woman, He is "'Son of man"; as male-child, He is Son of God, and Husband of the Church. All who imagine to have life in themselves are severed from Him, the Source of life, and, standing in their own strength, sink to the level of senseless beasts. Thus, the woman designates universally the kingdom of God; the beast, the kingdom of the world. The woman of whom Jesus was born represents the Old Testament congregation of God. The woman's travail-pains ( Rev 12:2 ) represent the Old Testament believers' ardent longings for the promised Redeemer. Compare the joy at His birth ( Isa 9:6 ). As new Jerusalem (called also "the woman," or "wife," Rev 21:2, 9-12 ), with its twelve gates, is the exalted and transfigured Church, so the woman with the twelve stars is the Church militant.

[RnMomof7]

??? I have no clue what was on 71???

[Catholicguy]

<> I appreciate being singled-out for one of your few comments. I don't think Mr. Hahn was trying to deceive or trick folks. He was reasoning by analogy. He in no way intended to trick or fool others.

I don't know whether or not Hahn has debated others. If he has, he has likely wiped the floor with them.

As to your most Catholics don't read the Bible, that is likely true. The same holds for most Protestants. One of the biggest fallacies existing is that protestants know scripture. They really don't.

Individual protestants know what their local ministers tell them about the Bible. Woe betide that man in the congregation who dares disagree with his Minister. Although both, protestant doctrine tells us, are led by the Holy Spirit to ascertain the truth of God's word, it is the local Minister who is the Pope for his local ecclesia.

You traded one Pope for millions. Not a good deal :)

>For those raised Catholics and now have abandoned the Ark of Salvation for antother Church, 2 John 10 (I am doing this from memory; so I may be off a verse or two).<>

[Desdemona]

One of the biggest fallacies existing is that protestants know scripture.

True, but they do know how to use it like sound-bites.

[JesseShurun]

We're just awful.

After the same manner, Mary took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood (somewhere in Corinthians I'm sure)

[RnMomof7]

Catholic Church members receive most of their religious information from the Church leaders, Catholic Catechisms as children, and people like Scott Hahn, rather than going themselves to the Scriptures.... Scott used a trick to try to convince people who do not know much about Scripture into believing that this specific Scripture indicates Mary should be bestowed glory and that she should be exalted. This Scripture does not indicate that Mary should be glorified or exalted. If you look closely at what he said, “The first command that deals with our fellow relations”. Fellow relations means human relations. And besides, it makes absolutely no sense to tell the Jewish people to glorify, bestow glory, and exalt their Dad and Mom.

Thanks for futher insite into Scott

I accidently ran across the intentional error on the teaching on the fourth cup posted on another thread . Like you ,a former Catholic, I knew no scripture except the churchs proof texts before I was born again..

I make no claims to being a scholar by any means ..but I do love the word of God and so that change jumped out at me..

I believe Scott wanted an audience that would see him as a scholar. There was no way Protestants ever would..We have hundreds of "ordinary"Pastors and laymen that know the word as well or better than Scott. But to the scripitually ignorant Catholics he is a scholar trophy

After I caught that error I did a bit of a search on him and found he had met resistance when he pastored a protestant church.

My concern is not Scott..there are lots of false teacher and ego driven scripture scholars (in all churches)..but I do care about the correct use of scripture by the teachers and Pastors.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You got mail.

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

LOL....shhh some of them wil believe it..

[Desdemona]

After the same manner, Mary took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant in my blood (somewhere in Corinthians I'm sure)

Uh, no. Even I know better than that. And even now, those words during Mass are offered by the priest - and ONLY the priest.

[JesseShurun]

No I'm pretty sure it's in Corinthians or maybe Ephesians where Paul lays out church stuff.

And what about Mrs. Noah, what's-her-name anyway? I suppose she sat around all day watching Noah work? And how about that David;s mother? She was even married before she had those 8 sons! Why isn't she given some accolades? Oh I take it back: You are right! It was Nahash who took a cup and said something like that in the OT! Sorry, you're right!! Somewhere in Samuel right?

[Desdemona]

None of those women birthed the Son of God.

Really, this is getting old.

[JesseShurun]

Hmmm. Well, if she hadn't birthed David, there'd be no line of David. Sarah, Rebecca, Rachel, Leah I think she had something to do with it, but not sure, what about them?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

The same holds for most Protestants. One of the biggest fallacies existing is that protestants know scripture. They really don't.

As a former catholic, who now attends and Independent Baptist Church (I don't consider myself a Protestant, but that is a whole other topic:) I have to agree with you 110% on this. Even most of the Independent Baptist in my church are a little vague on it:) That, IMO is why so much apostasy is out there.

2 John 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Is this what you were looking for?

What doctrine would you say was John talking about?

Becky

[Aquinasfan]

There were times there were two popes correct..and even a tale of a woman pope correct??

There was a time when there were three people claiming to be the pope, but there was only one legitimate pope. There are seven people today claiming to be the pope, but only one of them's right. And the Pope Joan thing is a silly myth.

Yes, the papacy has a checkered history. There certainly were many scoundrels. But they were by far in the minority. A large percentage of the early popes were martyred. It's hard to argue that they were in it for the perks. And we've had a great run of popes in the last 150 years at least.

Regardless, the sinfulness of individual popes does not negate or contradict the gift of infallibility. Popes can teach infallibly but the Church does not teach that popes are impeccable. Certainly the first pope, Peter, was not without sin.

[Aquinasfan]

The "woman" in that passage is not Mary..like so much of Revelation is is symbolic

Really?

The woman represents both Israel/the Church and Mary.

[Catholicguy]

Whosoever revolteth and continueth not in the doctrine of Christ hath not God. He that continueth in the doctrine, the same hath both the Father and the Son.

<> I was thinking of 2 John 9. Not bad for off the top of my head:)<>

[Aquinasfan]

Even most of the Independent Baptist in my church are a little vague on it:)

And they probably know absolutely nothing of the Church's Tradition and Magisterium. They only have a portion of the picture.

[JesseShurun]

Yes, quite correct. Mary has the 12 apostles in her headdress for Mary is the Church. And the sun and the moon under her domain, for she created them. She's the Word, the Ark of the New Covenant.