Posted on 10/07/2002 1:03:41 PM PDT by Polycarp
This is a decent summary from a non-Catholic source:
Current status of Mary:
Although the virgin Mary is rarely mentioned in the Bible, and although Protestant churches consider her to be a relatively minor biblical character, the Roman Catholic Church has long assigned her an elevated status.
The Roman Catholic Church has historically taught two basic dogmas about Mary:
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1. Mary is the Mother of God. |
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2. Perpetual Virginity: Mary was a virgin when Yeshua (Jesus) was conceived; this state continued throughout her life. |
Two additional dogmas about Mary were infallibly proclaimed by two popes during the 19th and 20th centuries:
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3. Immaculate Conception: Pope Pius IX proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception of Mary on 1854-DEC-8. Many Roman Catholics believe that this refers to Jesus' conception circa 5 to 7 BCE. In fact, it means that Mary herself was conceived free of sin before her birth circa 20 BCE. |
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4. Assumption of Mary: Pope Pius XII, in his Munificentissimus Deus (1950-NOV-1), defined that Mary, "after the completion of her earthly life was assumed body and soul into the glory of Heaven." That is, she was "taken up body and soul into heaven," at the time of her death. She is there "exalted as Queen of the Universe." 1 |
In addition, various popes and church councils have referred to Mary as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate:
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In ancient times:
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1750: Alphonsus Mary de Liguori, canonized as Saint Alphonsus in 1839, wrote a book "The Glories of Mary." It continues to be published today, under various church imprimaturs. Various chapters in the book are titled: "Mary our Help," "Mary our Mediatress," "Mary our Advocate," etc. 1 | ||||||
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1935: Pope Pius XI gave the title co-redemptrix to Mary during a radio broadcast. 1 | ||||||
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Circa 1965: The Chapter 8 of the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church, passed by the Vatican Council II states, in part:
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1985: Pope John Paul II recognized Mary as co-redemptrix" during a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador. He said, in part, "Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity...In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." 4 | ||||||
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1987-MAR-25: In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Pope John Paul II "referred to Mary as 'Mediatrix' three times, and as 'Advocate' twice." 1 | ||||||
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1997-APR-9: During an audience Pope John-Paul II referred to the role of Mary during the crucifixion of Jesus: "Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs." 1 |
Although Mary has been referred to on numerous occasions as co-redemptrix, mediatrix, and advocate, none have the force of an infallible papal declaration.
Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, initiated a formal petition drive in 1993 during a Marian conference at that university. It asks the Pope to make infallible statement that would officially elevate Mary, the mother of Jesus, to the status of co-redeemer. More than six million signatures from 148 countries have reached the Vatican as of the end of the year 2000, asking that Pope John Paul II infallibly declare a new dogma: "That the Virgin Mary is a co-redeemer with Jesus and co-operates fully with her son in the redemption of humanity." If this were done, "she would be a vastly more powerful figure, something close to the fourth member of the Holy Trinity and the primary female face through which Christians experience the divine." 3 Miravalle's petition has received support from Mother Theresa, 550 bishops, Cardinal John O'Connor and 41 other cardinals (including at least 12 cardinals in Rome). If the dogma is declared infallibly, it would pronounce Mary as "Co-Redemptrix [co-redeemer], Mediatrix [mediator] of All Graces, and Advocate for the People of God." It would require all Roman Catholics to believe that:
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Mary is co-redemptrix with Jesus. She participates in people's redemption. |
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Mary is mediatrix and has the power to grant all graces. |
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Mary is the advocate for the people of God and has the authority to influence God's judgments. |
If the dogma is infallibly declared, many feel that, in the words of Father Rene Laurentin, it would be the equivalent of launching "bombs" at Protestants. Father Laurentin is a French monk and the world's leading Mary scholar. He believes that: "Mary is the model of our faith but she is not divine. There is no mediation or co-redemption except in Christ. He alone is God." Raising the status of Mary would further acerbate the split between the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. Ecumenical activity would be negatively affected. There is speculation that a schism might develop over the issue within the Roman Catholic church. There may be a renewed debate over the role of the pope's power in the church. 5,6
The Communion of Saints: Biblical Overview 19K
Dialogue on Objections to the Communion of Saints 22K
Cloud of Witnesses: A Biblical Primer on the Communion of Saints 7K
"Witnesses" of Hebrews 12:1 4K
1 Corinthians 15:29 and "Baptism for the Dead": What Does it Mean? 59K
EXTERNAL LINKS
Saints: Holy Siblings (Scott Hahn)
Devotion to Our Lady and the Saints (William G. Most)
What is a Saint? (James Akin)
Asking the Saints to Intercede (James Akin)
Can Those in Heaven Hear Our Prayers? (James Akin)
Why Do Catholics Pray to Saints?("Matt1618")
The Communion of Saints (Augustine Club Website)
The Biblical Basis for Guardian Angels (James Akin)
Veneration of Holy Images (Pope John Paul II: 4 December 1987)
Are Saints "New Revelation"? (Canonization)? (Mark P. Shea)
Catholic Encyclopedia links:
COMMUNION OF SAINTS
BEATIFICATION AND CANONIZATION
DULIA
IMAGES, VENERATION OF
MYSTICAL BODY OF THE CHURCH
If it falls from heaven with no source then do all men have an equal amount of faith? Is all faith equal in effect?
Poly you read the bible is this true???Is that the reason that they appeared with Jesus ? Or was it to confrim that Jesus fulfilled the OT..They represented the Law and the prophets...They stood witness for Christ..they did not come to tell you that you should pray to them!
Please not that the apostles did NOT talk to them only Jesus did
Cool! You were there and witnessed the fact the Apostles didn't talk to them! Wow! Awesome! (I knew you were a gramma, but I didn't know you were that old! You rock!)
Well I am GETTING OLD but mostly I read the word for myself :>) And it is clear that they OBSERVED a conversation between Jesus and the witnesses
In the Jewish law things were confirmed with three witnesses...Interesting the Law and the prophets testified with Jesus who He was..and the apostles were the witnesses of the meeting
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. apostles were the human witnesses
Mar 9:4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
1)History,
2)Jesus Christ
How do you even know a man named Jesus existed ?
How do you know he passed that authority onto Rome?
In the sixteenth century Protestantism did away with the authority of the Church and constituted every man his own judge of the Bible, and what was the consequence? Religion upon religion, church upon church, sprang into existence, and has never stopped springing up new churches to this day. When I gave my mission in Flint, Michigan, I invited, as I have done here, my Protestant friends to come and see me. A good and intelligent man came to me and said: "I will avail myself of this opportunity to converse with you."
"What Church do you belong to, my friend," said I.
"To the Church of the Twelve Apostles," said he. "Ha! ha!" said I, "I belong to that Church, too. But, tell me, my friend, where was your Church started?"
"In Terre Haute, Indiana," says he.
"Who started the Church, and who were the Twelve Apostles, my friend?" said I.
"They were twelve farmers," said he; "we all belonged to the same Church, the Presbyterian, but we quarreled with our preacher, separated from him, and started a Church of our own."
"And that," said I, "is the Twelve Apostles you belonged to, twelve farmers of Indiana! The Church came into existence about thirty years ago."
A few years ago, When I was in Terre Haute, I asked to be shown the Church of the Twelve Apostles. I was taken to a window and it was pointed out to me, "but it is not in existence any more," said my informant, "it is used as a wagon maker's shop now."
Again, St. Paul, in his Epistles to the Galatians, says: "Though we Apostles, or even an angel of light were to come and preach to you a different Gospel from what we have preached, let him be anathema." That is the language of St. Paul, because, my dearly beloved people, religion must come from God, not from man. No man has a right to establish a religion; no man has a right to dictate to his fellow man what he shall believe and what he shall do to save his soul. Religion must come from God, and any religion that is not established by God is a false religion, and a human institution, and not an institution of God; and therefore did St. Paul say in his Epistles to the Galatians, "Though we Apostles, or even an angel of light were to come and preach to you a different Gospel from what we have preached, let him be anathema."
VIII.
You see, then, my dearly beloved people, from the text of the Scripture I have quoted that, if the Catholic Church has once been the True Church, then She is yet the True Church.
You have also seen from what I have said that the Catholic Church is the institution of God, and not of man, and this is a fact, a fact of history, and no fact of history is so well supported, so well proved, as that the Catholic Church is the first, the Church established by Jesus Christ.
So, in like manner, it is an historical fact that all the Protestant churches are the institutions of man, every one of them. And I will give you their dates, and the names of their founders or instituters.
In the year 1520, 368 years ago, the first Protestant came into the world. Before that one there was not a Protestant in the world, not one on the face of the whole earth; and that one, as all history tells us, was Martin Luther, who was a Catholic Priest, who fell away from the Church through pride, and married a nun. He was excommunicated from the Church, cut off, banished, and made a new religion of his own.
Before Martin Luther there was not a Protestant in the world; he was the first to raise the standard of rebellion and revolt against the Church of God. He said to his disciples that they should take the Bible for their guide, and they did so. But they soon quarreled with him, Zwingli, and a number of others, and every one of them started a new religion of his own.
After the disciples of Martin Luther came John Calvin, who in Geneva established the Presbyterian religion, and hence, almost all of those religions go by the name of their founder.
I ask the Protestant, "Why are you a Lutheran, my friend?"
"Well, says he, "because I believe in the doctrine of Martin Luther."
Hence, not of Christ, but of man, Martin Luther. And what kind of man was he? A man who had broken the solemn oath he had made at the altar of God, at his ordination, ever to lead a pure, single, and virginal life. He broke that solemn oath, and married a Sister Catherine, who had also taken the same oath of chastity and virtue. And this was the first founder of Protestantism in the world. The very name by which they are known tells you they came from Martin Luther.
So. The Presbyterians are sometimes called Calvinists because they come from, or profess to believe in, John Calvin.
IX.
After them came Henry VIII. He was a Catholic, and defended the Catholic religion; he wrote a book against Martin Luther in defense of the Catholic doctrine. That book I have myself seen in the library of the Vatican at Rome a few years ago. Henry VIII defended the religion, and for doing so was titled by the Pope "Defender of the Faith." It came down with his successors, and Queen Victoria inherits it today. He was married to Catherine of Aragon; but there was at his court a maid of honor to the Queen, named Ann Boleyn, who was a beautiful woman, and captivating in appearance. Henry was determined to have her. But he was a married man. He put in a petition to the Pope to be allowed to marry her; and a foolish petition it was, for the Pope had no power to grant the prayer of it. The Pope and all the bishops of the world cannot go against the will of God. Christ says: "If a man putteth away his wife and marrieth another, he committeth adultery, and he that marrieth her who is put away committeth adultery also."
As the Pope would not grant the prayer of Henry's petition he took Ann Boleyn anyhow, and was excommunicated from the Church.
After awhile there was another maid of honor prettier than the first, more beautiful and charming in the eyes of Henry, and he said he must have her, too. He took the third wife, and a fourth, fifth and sixth followed. Now this is the founder of the Anglican Church, the Church of England; and, therefore, it is that it goes by the name of the Church of England.
Our Episcopalian friends are making great efforts nowadays to call themselves Catholic, but they shall never come to it. They own that the name Catholic is a glorious one, and they would like to possess it. The Apostles said: "I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church"; they never said, in the Anglican Church. The Anglicans deny their religion, for they say they believe in the Holy Ghost, the Holy Catholic Church. Ask them if they are Catholics, and they say, "Yes, but not Roman Catholics; we are English Catholics." What is the meaning of the word Catholic? It comes from the Greek word Catholicus; universal, spread all over the earth, and everywhere the same. Now, first of all, the Anglican Church is not spread all over the earth; it only exists in a few countries, and chiefly only where the English language is spoken.
Secondly, they are not the same all over the earth, for there are now four different Anglican churches; the Low Church, the High Church, the Ritualist Church and the Puseyite Church. Catholicus means more than this, not only spread all over the earth and everywhere the same, but it means, moreover, at all times the same, from Christ up to the present day. Now, then, they have not been in existence from the time of Christ. There never was an Episcopalian Church or an Anglican Church before Henry VIII. The Catholic Church had already existed fifteen hundred years before the Episcopal came into the world.
After Episcopalianism different other churches sprang up. Next came the Methodist, about one hundred and fifty years ago. It was started by John Wesley, who was at first a member of the Episcopalian Church; subsequently he joined the Moravian Brethren, but not liking them, he maid a religion of his own, the Methodist Church.
After John Wesley several others sprang up; and finally came the Campbellites, about sixty years ago. This Church was established by Alexander Campbell, a Scotchman.
X.
Well, now, my dear beloved people, you may think that the act of the "twelve apostles" of Indiana was a ridiculous one, but they had as much right to establish a church as had Henry VIII, or Martin Luther, or John Calvin. They had no right at all, and neither had Henry VIII, or the rest of them any right whatsoever.
Christ had established His Church and given His solemn oath that His Church should stand to the end of time: He promised that He had built it upon a rock, and that the gates of hell should never prevail against it; hence, my dear people, all those different denominations of religion are the invention of man; and I ask you can a man save the soul of his fellow man by any institution he can make? Must not religion come from God?
And, therefore, my dearly beloved separated brethren, think over it seriously. You have a soul to be saved, and that soul must be saved or damned; either one or the other, it will dwell with God in heaven or with the devil in hell; therefore, seriously meditate upon it.
When I gave my Mission in Brooklyn several Protestants became Catholics. Among them there was a very highly educated and intelligent Virginian. He was a Presbyterian. After he had listened to my lecture he went to see his minister, and he asked him to be kind enough to explain a text of the Bible. The minister gave him the meaning. "Well, now," said the gentleman, "are you positive and sure that is the meaning of the text, for several other Protestants explain it differently?" "Why, my dear young man," says the preacher, "we never can be certain of our faith." "Well, then," says the young man, "good-bye to you: If I cannot be sure of my faith in the Protestant church, I will go where I can." And he became a Catholic.
We are sure of our Faith in the Catholic Church, and if our Faith is not true, Christ has deceived us. I would, therefore, beg you, my separated brethren, to procure for yourselves Catholic Books. You have read a great deal against the Catholic Church, now read something in favor of it. You can never pass an impartial sentence if you do not hear both sides of the question.
What would you think of a judge before whom a policeman would bring a poor offender, and who on the charge of the policeman, without hearing the prisoner, would order him to be hung? "Give me a hearing," says the poor man, "and I will prove my innocence. I am not guilty," says he. The policeman says he is guilty. "Well, hang him anyhow," says the judge. What would you say of that judge? Criminal judge! Unfair man; you are guilty of the blood of the innocent! Would not you say that? Of course you would.
Well now, my dearly beloved Protestant friends, that is what you have been doing all along; you have been hearing one side of the question and condemning us Catholics as a superstitious lot of people, going and telling their sins to the priest; and what, after all, is the priest more than any other man? My dear friends, have you examined the other side of the question?
No, you do not think it worth your while; but this is the way the Jews dealt with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ; and this is the way the Pagans and Jews dealt with the Apostles, the ministers of the Church, and with the primitive Christians.
Allow me to tell you, my friends, that you have been treating us precisely in the same way the Jews and Pagans treated Jesus Christ and His Apostles. I have said this evening hard things, but if St. Paul were here tonight, in this pulpit, he would have said harder things still. I have said them, however, not through a spirit of unkindness, but through a spirit of love, and a spirit of charity, in the hope of opening your eyes that your souls my be saved. It is love for your salvation, my dearly beloved Protestant brethren, for which I would gladly give my heart's blood; my love for your salvation that has made me preach to you as I have done.
XI.
"Well," say my Protestant friends, "if a man thinks he is right would he not be right?" Let us suppose now a man in Ottawa, who wants to go to Chicago, but takes a car for New York; the conductor asks for his ticket; and he at once says: "You are in the wrong car; your ticket is for Chicago, but you are going to New York." "Well, what of that?" Says the passenger. "I mean well." "Your meaning will not go well with you in the end," says the conductor, "for you will come out at New York instead of Chicago."
You say you mean well, my dear friends; your meaning will not take you to heaven; you must do well also. "He that doeth the will of My Father," says Jesus, "he alone shall be saved." There are millions in hell who meant well. You must do well, and be sure you are doing well, to be saved. I thank my separated brethren for their kindness in coming to these controversial lectures. I hope I have said nothing to offend them. Of course, it would be nonsense for me not to preach Catholic Doctrines.
You like it when you can interpret it ..and forget the other verses
In my hometown, there is a drugstore chain called Kopp's Drugs.
I never knew the owner. Apparently he was a distant relative.
But I know someone who knows someone who knew the owner personally. The owner started his enterprise and handed it down through the generations. That's how I know that original Kopp started the first Kopp Drugs drug store. I've never looked at the legal incorporations letters or the IRS returns. I only know what has been handed down to me by those generations.
The current Kopp Drugs claims a direct lineage to that first one. I know they are being truthful because I know the origins, who started that institution.
Likewise I am a member of an institution started by Jesus Christ. I know He existed because He started His institution, the Divine Physician, and passed down through the ages His Healing ministry by way of His Church. A book does not make me believe He existed. There are lots of books from lots of false prophets like Smith and Mohammed and the rest.
Those books, even our own scriptures, are not self authenticating.
I believe He exists because HIS Church tells me so. He said he would build "MY CHURCH." I believe Him. He never claimed to write a catechism, which protestants mistakenly think the Bible is.
He simply built a Church, granted it authority to loose and bind, gave it the KEYS of Heaven and Earth, the authority to FORGIVE sins, and interpret scripture, and the promise of His Holy Spirit to lead it to all Truth.
Based on the authority of that Church He built, I beliebe the scriptures are the Word of God and that He did Live.
All you have is non-self authenticating scriptures. You don't have a Church, granted authority to loose and bind, given the KEYS of Heaven and Earth, the authority to FORGIVE sins, and the promise of His Holy Spirit to lead it to all Truth.
The question really is...
You have nothing except non-self authenticating scriptures.
How do you even know a man named Jesus existed ?
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