Hellfire And Brimstone Preaching

http://www.christianinformer.org/2k01hell.htm ^ | 10/5/02 | Richard Nichols

[RnMomof7]

Man centered religions GW.....like the sun moving around the earth...

[evangmlw]

DA YA GO ? Can you imagine a cancer patient being told by his or her doctor, "tests have shown there to be a cancer in your body, we love you, everything will be ok, just go home and don't worry about it." That is the gospel being preached in many of our pulpits today my friend. Never confront man with his problem and prescribe the only solution, just let him die and go to hell, (because you love him).

[AnalogReigns]

RnMomof7: I thought you were a Calvinist! Jean Chauvin would disapprove, I suspect.

As I understand from Calvin's Commandos here at FR, "Hellfire and brimstone" preaching would be a worthless enterprise for a Calvinist:

1. The elect are predestined to go to Paradise, and don't need to be scared into it.

2. There is nothing the non-elect can do to get into Paradise (i.e.; they are consigned to Hell), and strong preaching won't do them any good. They can take the sermon to heart, live a righteous life, and still can't get into Heaven.

I am out of town until Sunday afternoon; I look forward to your answer.

Hi, I don't know if you know me, as I only occasionally post, but I'm one of those "commandos" you mention. Since it doesn't look as if anyone tried to answer you, let me give it a swing.

First of all, I'd like to say that for Calvin the "doctrine of election" was not a primary concern--rather a behind the scenes thing, something only God the Father (of the Trinity) really knows. It wasn't even discussed in his monumental work the Institutes until like book 2 or 3 (out of 4 books). The famous "5 points" of Calvinism, while orthodox, were formulated a generation after Calvin, and were simply the 5 replies to the the followers of theologian Arminius. People get messed up when they think that's what Calvinism is all about...

To your point however--I know you won't be satisfied with my answer, but I think its one that's in the Bible and one that makes sense (even if not fully comprehendable). The answer is this:

God while foreordaining the end....also foreordains the means.

Application is this: While God draws people to himself, they are NOT passive, they themselves must freely choose to believe--and God uses preaching (as described by Paul in Romans 10) to bring people to belief. It's God's grace and choice which makes people believe...and that same grace and choice, makes those same people behave well too...if they don't, well, it shows that maybe (God knows...) their belief is conterfeit.

Therefore your 2 points are wrong:

1) The elect (those who ultimately will go to heaven) often are scared in a way into belief... and scripture says "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of Wisdom" (Proverbs 1:7) but it doesn't STOP there either for "perfect love drives out all fear." (I John 4:18)(Keep in mind the ultimate "fire and brimstone" sermon was preached by America's greatest Calvinist, the 18th Century's Jonathan Edwards) From these I get that fear of God is an entrance way...not an end.

2)No one except God knows who the "non-elect" are, we only know (most of the time) who the non-believers are, and ANYONE can make it to heaven, by trusting Jesus and His perfect work, INSTEAD of their own goodness. Even the best, kindest, most loving man or woman, can't do enough to EARN a place with God, it must be accepted as a gift. A "non-elect" simply won't take a sermon to heart, and ultimately won't live a "good" life... In that way one can get clues as to who the "real" believers are, in that they love like Jesus loves. Still, God alone knows!

If that doesn't make sense, that's OK, as my arguments won't convince you--unless you are "quickened" (to use an old word) by God's Holy Spirit, and I'll leave that with Him.

In that way us Calvinists are different than many of the typical "fire and brimstone" types in that we endeavor to tell people what's true, then leave the results up to God. This means I for one will not use pressure sales tactics in sharing the good news of Jesus--I'll do my best, but then trust God as to how they respond.

[George W. Bush]

An astonishingly good post there, Analog. I didn't even know you were Calvinist i.e. holding the true Christian doctrine regarding man's natural spiritual state and God's sovereignty toward man in salvation.

It is a commonplace attack upon the Bible's doctrines of grace (Calvinism) to say that those of us who uphold these ancient Christian doctrines are championing some sort of robotic religion or that God has taken us prisoner or made slaves of us. This could not be further from the truth. As can be readily observed from nature, all forms of complex life strongly exhibit free will, mankind more so than any other. It is another straw man for Arminians to knock down to attack God's absolute sovereignty in salvation. God will not take us prisoner or make us slaves even if we pray for it. God desires our willing love and service to Him.

kiltmaker, it gives me no particular pleasure to tell you that there is no Summerland. Paganism isn't actually any worse a religion than any other manmade religion. But there is only one supernatural religion and that is Christianity, a saving belief in Christ. Ignore any local Christians that are a stumbling block to your view of Christ. Christ calls you to freedom and joy. And, doctrines of election notwithstanding, I believe that God will find a seeking heart. Our Father is most generous toward us. I would suggest that you consider the doctrine of election to mean that, with regard to mankind, God has so arranged His eternal plan of creation so as to save every possible soul that He can but without violating His own holy standards and His requirement that we serve Him willingly. We are children of God, not slaves or robots or prisoners.

[RnMomof7]

sower.....table manners?????
how'd they do that?

I just saw this post...It was a young Priest..He read the gospel and then likened it to the frustration of a parent trying to teach good table manners..Some times it takes right away, some times it lasts for a minute and sometimes they never get it..but he reassured them if they keep trying the kids will learn

That Sunday I was the Lector so I was sitting on the altar as he was speaking...my face must have registerd my shock.One of the most significant parables on evangelization and it was reduced to table manners..

[xzins]

That's a lousy interpretation. And a dangerous one. He was telling parents that the kids would show progress and grow into a well-mannered kid.

He's saying the sower parable, seeds and soils, represent a process in which the person "improves his soil over time."

I don't get that impression from Jesus' interpretation at all.

[RnMomof7]

In that way us Calvinists are different than many of the typical "fire and brimstone" types in that we endeavor to tell people what's true, then leave the results up to God. This means I for one will not use pressure sales tactics in sharing the good news of Jesus--I'll do my best, but then trust God as to how they respond.

Excellent post AR...One plants and one waters but it is indeed God that gives the increase:>)

[RnMomof7]

I understand quite clearly what you are saying, but I still don't believe it. I suspect that you would count me among both the nonbelievers and the non-elect. I am quite comfortable with that.

I was a 30 something agnostic on my way to full blown athethism when I was saved...so I will not "count" you as a non elect..ya may not believe today, ...but God has His time and His way and if you are His He will make that live inside of you..

[RnMomof7]

Amen...I just read a wonderful analogy...Scripture tells us not to be drunk with the Spirit and not with wine which leads to debatchery, but with Holy Spirit...

Before we are saved we are drunk with sin. Like the drunk that is driven by the alcohol to continue to sin . It lies to us and tells us we are not drunk..we " can handle it" The alcohol ( or sin nature) drives the decisions we make. When the Holy Spirit taps us on the shoulder we become drunk with the Spirit of God instead .God's grace intoxicates us with His "new desire and power" we just naturally turn to Him!

Both the decision to turn from God and the decision to turn toward God are our decisions

[RnMomof7]

Nope but the RC's have poor understanding of basic scripitual principles..they are not generally well taught (the FR Catholics are the exception not the rule)

What he did is typical of stretching the gospel to make it life application instead of just preaching the word and letting God illuminate the message He wants heard by each individual