Mormons and Muslims? How do you all see each other?

http://www.byui.edu/Ricks/employee/PECKDD/LDS_View_Muhammad.pdf ^

[fishtank]

http://www.byui.edu/Ricks/employee/PECKDD/LDS_View_Muhammad.pdf

[restornu]

Now why were you out with these younsters, and how did they get lost?

[computerjunkie]

Did Tig go with you and the boys and did he help find the lost 4th graders??

[Quester]

How does this exclusively benevolent caricature of Muhammad square with clear statements from the Koran to "slay the infidel"?

[Grig]

Truth is never blasphemy.

Were there not some who accepted Moses as a true prophet of God and others who did not? Of course. Same thing with Joseph, and as I said before, if you reject a prophet of God, you have rejected God. It doesn't make any difference if that prophet is Moses or Joseph Smith.

If you can make some kind of reasoned argument for how a person who rejects a prophet of God and does not repent of it can still enter heaven, then make it.

[Grig]

"I think Joey Smith was in for a big surprise at those Pearly Gates. "

And we think you are in for a big surprise. See ya there.

"Didn't you read that First Commandment? You know the one, that says I'm God, and thus sole judge, not you?"

Where did I say Joseph judged you? I said he reported to God, and that information will be taken into account by God when God judges you. If you rejected God's prophets, you have rejected God, but even those who accept it and become LDS still have to endure to the end in righteousness. God is the judge, Christ is our advocate, your acceptance of God's prophets (or lack of it) is evidence.

[Quester]

I believe that the pertinent question is ...

Why should we believe that Joseph was a prophet of God ?

What would lead us to this belief ?

[Grig]

"Since the gospel (i.e. God's revelation regarding THE WAY of our entry into the His Kingdom) was established, at least, by the time of Paul's writing, some 1900+ years ago, as unchanging per Galatians 1:8,9 ... what revelation does Joseph bring to this dispensation which is, somehow, necessary to the question of our salvation ?"

The gospel is unchanging, true, but man's understanding of it has evolved away from the truth, and the authority of God was lost. A prophet was required to restore the fullness of the gospel and the authority. There was much knowledge that had to be restored, and what little of it you already know of you clearly reject. If you want to konw more, search on 'restoration' on lds.org

[drstevej]

***I said before, if you reject a prophet of God, you have rejected God.***

True, but you presuppose Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are true prophets, AND that is the issue! Furthermore, P-Marlow and I have presented copious reasons for the conclusion that these two are false prophets.

The Freeper LDS folk do not want to engage P-M in a reasoned discission of whether Joseph Smith is a true prophet or a false prophet. Or are you NOW willing to do so?

Instead, you claim Smith to be a true prophet based upon a burning bosom. And tell others if they were really sincere and really prayed about it God would confirm it. A convenient apporach to avoid any sober analysis of Joseph Smith's history and theology.

Joe Smith is no Moses. His homemade religion is closer to Micah in Judges 17&18!

[Polycarp]

Sorry, Joey Smith was not a prophet. The Savior came before him, no need for any more "prophets."

Scripture was quite clear about the coming of false prophets in the "Latter Days." Smith was certainly prophesied, but he was no prophet.

The only purpose LDS theology serves me is to illustrate the error of sola scriptura as it regards the Trinity.

[Grig]

I'm not exactly sure what you are asking for, but perhaps this http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1 fits.

We also feel that the apostacy and restoration of the gospel is fortold in the Bible.

[Grig]

The quote is valid, but I think you are being lead to attach a meaning to it that is not a correct protrayal of our doctrine.

Joseph is a SERVANT of Christ, not a replacement in any way. It is Christ who attoned for us, and it is only by Christ we can return. We worship Christ, we do not worship Joseph, although we have great respect for what he did. As I said before, God is our judge, Christ is our advocate, and our acceptance or rejection of God's prophets is valid evidence that will effect the outcome.

[PFKEY]

"... no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith ..."

Not sure how it should be read. The meaning I get from the quote says that I need the consent of Joseph Smith. If that is not correct then how should I be reading the quote.

And I do ask in all sincerity.

[Grig]

"I believe that the pertinent question is ... Why should we believe that Joseph was a prophet of God ? What would lead us to this belief ?"

Excellent question.

When it comes to conversion, we want people to rely on God, not on man's understanding. Mankind is not in unity on the issue, and for every argument supporting one side of the question, there is a counter argument by the other side. Trying to reach the truth in this way would mean you would have to pick what person's to belive and hope you are right.

Instead, we say take it to God. We point to the truth of Book of Mormon as evidence that Joseph was a true prophet of God. If the BoM is the word of God, then Joseph is a prophet, if it is a fake, that would be proof he was a fake. Once again however, you can't rely on man's understanding and abiltiy to determine if it is true or not, again you would have pick one side and hope you got it right.

So how does a perons know if the BoM is true? Ask God, He knows, He wants you to know the truth of it too. The BoM promises: "And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost." That is the acid test.

Note the pre-condidtions however:
1) a sincere heart
simple curiosity is not being sincere, nor is a stubborn attempt to prove a pre-chosen result is correct. If you are willing to conform your life to what is true, even if it's the last thing you want to be true, then you are sincere.

2) real intent
It has to be important to you, something you are willing to work for if you have to. A person who rattles off one quick prayer and think that's all the effort it deserves doesnt' isn't really intent on getting an answer.

3) faith in Christ
I hope I don't have to define that for you.

So, if you really want to know if Joseph is a propet of God or not, and you really want to conform your life to the truth, (even if it means becoming LDS), then read the BoM with an honest heart and pray and ask God about it. We don't ask people to take our word for it, we ask them to find our from God and take His word.

[drstevej]

Compare grig's suggestion to my comment:

***Instead, you claim Smith to be a true prophet based upon a burning bosom. And tell others if they were really sincere and really prayed about it God would confirm it. A convenient apporach to avoid any sober analysis of Joseph Smith's history and theology.***

Here's a better test...

Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

The BoM, not to mention the Book of Abraham, fails the Acts 17:11 test.

[Grig]

"True, but you presuppose Joseph Smith and Brigham Young are true prophets,"

You overlook that BY, who made those statements, ALSO presuppose Joseph Smith is a true prophet, so they should be looked at in that light.

"The Freeper LDS folk do not want to engage P-M in a reasoned discission of whether Joseph Smith is a true prophet or a false prophet. Or are you NOW willing to do so? "

Like you, P-M has earned my distrust with his past behaviour, and so I don't trust him to stick to 'reasoned discussion' and I suspect his motives. Any person who wants to know if Jospeh was a true prophet or not can find that out for themselves from God. Those who want an excuse to reject him can find many that Satan has been happy to manufacture.

"Instead, you claim Smith to be a true prophet based upon a burning bosom."

No, it's based on the witness of the Holy Ghost, personal revelation. Your attempt to downplay it as some kind of heartburn only makes it look like you yourself have not had the Holy Ghost witness anything to you.

"A convenient apporach to avoid any sober analysis of Joseph Smith's history and theology. "

I'm happy to engage in sober analysis of Joseph Smith's history and theology with any sincere person. You and P-M have clearly shown that you are not in that category.

[Quester]

And another thing ... JESUS, the ultimate authority on our salvation, consistently declared that our entry into heaven depended solely on our belief, trust, and acceptance in HIM, apart from any prophets which came before or who may have come after. Certainly a belief in the prophetic ministry of Moses would be a support for our ultimate belief in JESUS, but it would not be a necessity. There are those who have placed their hope of salvation in JESUS, who, for the moment perhaps, know nothing of Moses or his ministry. For some, that knowledge comes later. Assuredly, acceptance of any particular prophet's ministry or teaching, many of whom we are not aware, is not stated by JESUS as a requirement for the salvation God offers.

JESUS is very clear on this ...

For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world, through Him, might be saved.

Whosoever believeth in Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into His hand.

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life, and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. John 3:35-36

For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgement unto the Son.

That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent Him.

Truly, truly I say unto you ... He that heareth My word, and believeth on Him that hath sent me, hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life. John 5:22-24

And this is the record ... that God hath given unto us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.

He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God. I John 5:11-13

You see, Grig, it's not really about Joseph, ... it's about JESUS.

Joseph was/is, at best, 'a light'.

JESUS is 'THE LIGHT'.

If I have 'THE LIGHT', it is not a necessity for me to have any other 'light', whether it be Joseph, or Moses, or any other. The purpose of these 'other lights' was/is, as it was/is with John the Baptist, to point the way to 'THE LIGHT' of JESUS (John 1:6-9).

[Grig]

"Sorry, Joey Smith was not a prophet. The Savior came before him, no need for any more "prophets.""

Really!, I guess you think Peter was just lying about getting a revelation to take the gospel to the Gentiles then.

"Scripture was quite clear about the coming of false prophets"

Sure, but it is illogical to assume from that, that there will be no true prophets.

[Grig]

It seems to me that some are trying to portray it as Joseph replacing God as our judge.

Having Joseph's consent doesn't mean you get into heaven, that is just ONE thing that God will look at, but not having it will be enough to keep you out however. As I said before, if you reject God's prophets, you reject God. Joseph is not our god, judge, advocate, or savior.

[Grig]

Gosh, it looks like that apostles were all messed up at first then:

Acts 2:
37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 ¶ Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Studying the scripture is certainly to be encouraged, but you notice in Acts 17:11 that they 'received the word with all readiness of mind' FIRST. Kinda sad when a self-proclaimed christian has to resort to trying to tell people to NOT pray, and NOT trust the Holy Ghost.

[Quester]

The gospel is unchanging, true, but man's understanding of it has evolved away from the truth, and the authority of God was lost. A prophet was required to restore the fullness of the gospel and the authority. There was much knowledge that had to be restored, and what little of it you already know of you clearly reject.

This is, once again, merely a claim of the LDS church. What is the evidence for such a claim?

And, for the record, I do not reject the teaching of the LDS church.

It would be much more accurate to say, that, as of this point in time, ... I am simply unpersuaded.

At this point in time, I would say that the evidence the LDS church has presented to back up it's claims ... has simply been unpersuasive.