Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.

His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.

The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."

His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:

• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.

• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.

• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.

• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."

'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."

Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.

His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.

"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."

Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.

But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.

"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."

According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.

"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."

Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.

What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.

For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.

9/11 opportunity lost

The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.

"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.

This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.

Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.

The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.

"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."

With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.

The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."

Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.

Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.

"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You are an Arminian..

Nope, sorry wrong again!

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

When he repented and returned to the Law, his righteousness before God was restored. His obedience and his sin were his own choices. So yes, it was up to him.

You are possibly into dangerous territory here. Would you deny that everything we have, every thing, is absolutely "on loan from God?" That what we are given, we are given as stewards?

SD

[malakhi]

Anyone including our friend Ange is lost without Christ

The one whom you think is "Christ" is not moshiach. The worship of a man as God is idolatrous. You must repent and serve alone.

See how this can work both ways?

The difference being that I don't believe that those who don't believe as I do are consigned to hell for all eternity.

Back on point:

1. Do you believe that you have free will?

2. Did Joshua choose to serve God?

3. Was Noah a righteous man?

4. 3. What did God mean when he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse"(Deuteronomy 30:19)?

Let me add a fifth:

5. Why do you think you deserve to suffer in hell for all eternity?

[RnMomof7]

Mack the gospel offend the natual carnal unregenerate man...they hung Jesus for it...no attitude here ...

I think Angelo is blind and deaf to the gospel.

Now if faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word..then maybe at some point a scripture will open his eyes.

The Mormons have read the bible too, so have the JW's..without the illumination of the Holy Spirit to a regenerate heart it is just bachround noise

How often did you hear it before you HEARD it?

How can one drive someone further away than lost?

See by your construct if you are nice to Ange and do not challange him too much MAYBE he will finally hear it thanks to your good nature

I think that Ange will hear and understand when God opens his ears to hear it and not one minute sooner..I can not save anyone..only God calls and saves..

Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

I can not pretend that Ange is simply arguing a doctrinal distinction as you and I are...This is a serious thing Mack someone we both like alot is lost..so I get hyper sorry

[SoothingDave]

It detracts from His glory when you castrate Him and say he can only act if you let him

That's really sad. You must really abhor freedom.

The way I see it, if a being needs to enslave beings and crush their will in order to have other beings to praise him, that is a pretty weak being. It's like dog people, who need to have the toadying worship of a lesser creature.

Now a being who gives his creation a true freedom to love him or not, multiplies his golory when these free beings decide to show their love, and praise his glory. It's like cat people.

SD

[RnMomof7]

Yea well some can you think of an example where all does mean all and where it doea not mean all?

[RnMomof7]

At some point I have to be right:>) You express and Arminian view of Salvation hows that??

[CCWoody]

Only if we sacrifice a goat before we go.

Actually, Mack, is just pridefully mad at me and this is just his continued way to act like a jerk. What he doesn't realize is that in declaring that all must be all in 1 Ti 2:1-6 he is declaring that a certain promise of Jesus himself is a lie.

[RnMomof7]

1. Do you believe that you have free will?...YES

2. Did Joshua choose to serve God?..YES

3. Was Noah a righteous man?..God declared him righteous ..so He was righteous

4. 3. What did God mean when he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse"(Deuteronomy 30:19)? It was a call to save themselves by perfectly keeping the law of God perfectly and then they would have life . Could they ? Did they?

Let me add a fifth:

5. Why do you think you deserve to suffer in hell for all eternity?
I am saved by the blood of Christ and I am clothed by the righteousness of Christ. That righteousness allows me to enter into the presence of a Holy God. I have no righteouness (right standing with God on my own) Can anything filthy be in the presence of a holy God?(remember the washing before going into the Holy of Holies? That is your sign )

[CCWoody]

God gave us His Law to teach us what is good. When we obey Him, we are righteous. When David obeyed God, he was righteous. When he sinned, he lost his righteousness. When he repented and returned to the Law, his righteousness before God was restored. His obedience and his sin were his own choices. So yes, it was up to him.

Had David died before he repented of his sins against the LORD would he have been forever lost to Him?

[SoothingDave]

What did God mean when he said "I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse"(Deuteronomy 30:19)?

It was a call to save themselves by perfectly keeping the law of God perfectly and then they would have life . Could they ? Did they?

So then, my unanswered question from before re-appears. Was God just teasing them?

SD

[CCWoody]

The worship of a man as God is idolatrous.

Exactly correct! And yet, when Satan had tempted Jesus, He responded by saying: "You shall not tempt the Lord your God." Jesus Himself claims to be Lord and God.

[RnMomof7]

That's really sad. You must really abhor freedom.
The way I see it, if a being needs to enslave beings and crush their will in order to have other beings to praise him, that is a pretty weak being. It's like dog people, who need to have the toadying worship of a lesser creature.

Dave the problem is the only freedom that seems to count here is the carnal freedom to choose between evils..there is another choice you know?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

I am free ..those that are IN Christ are free..truly free..before that we were slvaes to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

.Gal 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Now a being who gives his creation a true freedom to love him or not, multiplies his golory when these free beings decide to show their love, and praise his glory. It's like cat people.

Is a man enslaved by sin free?

[SoothingDave]

Dave the problem is the only freedom that seems to count here is the carnal freedom to choose between evils..there is another choice you know?

Yes, it's called free will, and if you weren't afraid of freedom you would think about it. Address my comments on why a divine being would want slaves to toady to him rather than willing subjects.

SD

[malakhi]

Which is exactly why you reject Jesus who is both Lord and Christ.

Nope. I reject Jesus because he does not meet the requirements of the messiah. I find the Jewish interpretation of the Hebrew scriptures to be superior to that of Christianity.

You believe that your standing before the LORD is based upon your own merit; that you have obtained righteousness through observance of the Law.

Not exactly. Righteousness is obtained through obedience to God.

You believe that you do not need this "salvation" which the gentiles here speak because you believe that you already have it.

Essentially yes. And you know what? So do you.

In this way, all the gentiles who have preached the gospel to you have done you a great harm because they have not really preached the good news promised in the Law and the Prophets.

CC, you don't know me very well. My father is Christian and my mother is Jewish. I was brought up a Christian and returned to Judaism as an adult. I know what Christianity is about. I know how Christians interpret the Hebrew scriptures. I simply disagree with them.

Let me say that the LORD has raised up for us of the fruit of the patriarch David's body Jesus and that Man is sitting on the throne of David.

That's interesting. In what way is Jesus descended from David?

[malakhi]

The Bible says God would have all men be saved. So then all men including Ange and the Mormons and the JWS are saved??

6. Does God always get what He wants?

[malakhi]

Silly me I believed Hebrew 1 when it said He finished the work of salvation

Well, except for all those poor souls who are predestined to eternal damnation.

[ksen]

Where does it say that God withdrew His control of His creation and ceeded it to man? Could I have the chapter and verse?

I don't know if this has been answered, but here you go just in case it hasn't been.

Gen 1:
[28] And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

[malakhi]

I thought it was, what ya say angelo?

I got a chuckle out of it. I was wonderin' who was gonna be the goat. ;o)

[malakhi]

You are an Arminian..

Nope, sorry wrong again!

I think Mack is Irish. ;o)