Replies

So man is not BORN needing a savior? John was born as sinless as Jesus? I was born as sinless as Jesus?

Was Adam created as sinless as Jesus? Was Eve created as sinless as Jesus? Did Adam need a Savior? Did Eve need a Savior?

Do you believe Jesus had exactly the same kind of nature all other men do, or was He in some way a little different in nature from all other men? If you think his nature was different in some way, please quote the verse that says, "Jesus' nature was different than other men's."

Can you find a verse anywhere that ascribes sinfulness to nature? (Wrath is not sin, by the way.) My Bible everywhere teaches that sin is contrary to nature, all nature, including man's.

The moral problem with the sinful nature heresy introduced into Christian doctrine by Augustine, is it makes sin something that happens to people, not something they do. Guilt can only pertain to chosen action, God declares it unjust to hold someone guilty for what another has done.

(Gobs of verses for all these points I'll be glad to post if anyone requests.)

Hank

Adam was created innocent not righteous..

God foresaw the sin of Adam and made provision for it in advance ..so the Saviour was provided before they were created

What set Jesus apart was he was born a spotless lamb...you my friend were not ..

Tell me Hank In the last 2000 years how many men remained sinless...certainly if there is no original sin someone other than Christ must have lived a sinless life...who??

...it makes sin something that happens to people, not something they do. Guilt can only pertain to chosen action, God declares it unjust to hold someone guilty for what another has done.

So if I was not born a sinner, at what point did I commit a sin such that God would send His only Son, Jesus, to die for my sin? If, when I was age 3, I took a cookie that my mom told me I couldn't have, is that when I became a sinner? How about if I told a lie when I was 10? How about if I cheated on my income tax last year? When exactly did I become a sinner?

Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." When did all sin?

Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for my sin. Did God declare that unjust? After all, He was pronounced guilty for things He didn't do.

If you think his nature was different in some way, please quote the verse that says, "Jesus' nature was different than other men's."

John 5:18...Jesus' opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

John 8:58..quizzed about Abraham, Jesus said, "Truly, truly I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"..."I AM" or "Yahweh" is the personal name of God.

John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus' feet..."My Lord and my God!"

Philippiians 2:6 Pauls says that Christ Jesus "who, being in very NATURE God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped"

IS 44:6..."Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redemmer, Yahweh of armies: 'I am the First and I am the Last, besides me there is no God'"

Rev 1:17..."When I saw him (Christ), I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, 'Fear not, I am the First and the Last'" Rev 2:8 "The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life."

Rev 22:12-13 "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for WHAT HE HAS DONE." Rev 22:12-13 "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end."

The moral problem with the sinful nature heresy introduced into Christian doctrine by Augustine, is it makes sin something that happens to people, not something they do

Wow, great post!! Also the thing about sin being contrary to human nature--- absolutely!!!

Tell me more about Augustine?