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think both millennarian positions have a problem with the paradise they're describing and advocating. Both sides are doing far better at finding the flaws in the other guys' paradise than in their own.

I'm not advocating a "paradise" on this earth. Jesus: My kingdom is not of this world.

However, xzins has declared that when the Lord returns that He will not cast all things that offend into the furnace of fire. Therefore, if Sadaam is alive when the Lord returns, Sadaam will get to enjoy the "paradise" for 1000 years. I guess that Paul was just kidding when he talked about "sudden destruction."

I'm not advocating a "paradise" on this earth.

I hope no one thought I suggested that you had.

My point was that both millennial camps are doing far better at exposing the apparent contradictions in the views of the opposing camp than in providing a full explanation of their own position to refute the criticism of the opposing camp. [why am I so wordy!]

Anyway, the problems each camp has with believing the other reminds me of how many arguments the ancient Jews must have had over the promised coming of the Messiah and how and when it would happen.

And didn't the manner of the fulfillment of that central Christian prophecy surprise everyone? Even Jesus' own disciples and family? Even to the point that so many Jews refused (and still refuse) to recognize it? I think so. Maybe all the millenarian factions are in for some surprises before the end of time.