Replies

[Jean]: "The Pre-Millennialism of ~SOME~ of the early Church fathers was Historic Pre-Millennialism. Historic Pre-Millennialism believed the Church Replaced Israel as being Isreal."

[RnMomof7]: "Not true jean it is the Amils that believe that the church replaced Israel"

No, Mom, it ~IS~ true:

And when Scripture says, 'I am the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, who have made known Israel your King,'(1) will you not understand that truly Christ is the everlasting King? For you are aware that Jacob the son of Isaac was never a king. And therefore Scripture again, explaining to us, says what king is meant by Jacob and Israel: 'Jacob is my Servant, I will uphold Him; and Israel is mine Elect, my soul shall receive Him. I have given Him my Spirit; and He shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, and His voice shall not be heard without. The bruised reed He shall not break, and the smoking flax He shall not quench, until He shall bring forth judgment to victory. He shall shine, and shall not be broken, until He set judgment on the earth. And in His name shall the Gentiles trust.'(2) Then is it Jacob the patriarch in whom the Gentiles and yourselves shall trust? or is it not Christ? As, therefore, Christ is the Israel and the Jacob, even so we, who have been quarried out from the bowels of Christ, are the true Israelitic race. But let us attend rather to the very word: 'And I will bring forth,' He says, 'the seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah: and it shall inherit My holy mountain; and Mine Elect and My servants shall possess the inheritance, and shall dwell there; and there shall be folds of flocks in the thicket, and the valley of Achor shall be a resting-place of cattle for the people who have sought Me. But as for you, who forsake Me, and forget My holy mountain, and prepare a table for demons, and fill out drink for the demon, I shall give you to the sword. You shall all fall with a slaughter; for I called you, and you hearkened not, and did evil before me, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.'(3) Such are the words of Scripture; understand, therefore, that the seed of Jacob now referred to is something else, and not, as may be supposed, spoken of your people. For it is not possible for the seed of Jacob to leave an entrance for the descendants of Jacob, or for [God] to have accepted the very same persons whom He had reproached with unfitness for the inheritance, and promise it to them again; but as there the prophet says, 'And now, O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the Lord; for He has sent away His people, the house of Jacob, because their land was full, as at the first, of soothsayers and divinations;'(4) even so it is necessary for us here to observe that there are two seeds of Judah, and two races, as there are two houses of Jacob: the one begotten by blood and flesh, the other by faith and the Spirit.
from: Dialogue with Trypho [the Jew], Chapter CXXXV, by Justin Martyr

Jean

[Jean]: "The Pre-Millennialism of ~SOME~ of the early Church fathers was Historic Pre-Millennialism. Historic Pre-Millennialism believed the Church Replaced Israel as being Isreal."
[RnMomof7]: "Not true jean it is the Amils that believe that the church replaced Israel"
No, Mom, it ~IS~ true:

Hey there people. Read Romans 9-11, Galatians and Hebrews. The BIBLE and Christ (who declared the kingdom "taken from" them) say that the Church was to be the true inheriter of the New Covenant. Jews can be saved and join us, but they are not the "chosen" ones any more.

However, this also is only true and consistant from the preterist point of view because until "heaven and earth pass away, not one jot or tittle will pass from the law."

So in amil, premil, etc, heaven and earth are still here and by default, so is the law and Old Covenant.

Justin was the teacher of the teacher of the teacher...several layers removed from Historic pre mil...do you deny this?

Written by an amil jean..

III. ISRAEL & THE CHURCH

Are there "two separate programs of God" -- one for natural Israel and another for the Church? Two distinct "peoples of God"? This is what dispensationalists teach! Ryrie states that the

"basic promise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity." -- Ryrie, Dispensationalism Today, pp.44-45 (emphasis mine).

I believe that such can easily be refuted by a careful reading of Romans 11:17-26. Yes -- Israel was 'blinded' and 'cast away' for a season 'until the fulness of the Gentiles', etc. -- I believe this 100%. But notice that the Church was 'grafted into' the same "olive tree"! Further, it is this same "olive tree" that the remnant of saved Jews will be grafted back into it "again"! Note also that we are speaking of Israel's "own olive tree" (v. 24)! There is only one body, only one people of God, only one Israel -- and it is spiritual.

I suggest that the exalted Jesus Christ reigns now on "the throne of David" (Acts 2:30-36), on the true "Mt. Zion" (Ps. 2:6; Heb. 12:22; 1 Pe. 2:6; Rev. 14:1), in the heavenly "Jerusalem" (Gal. 4:26; Heb. 11:10,16; 12:22; 13:14; Rev. 3:12; 21:2,10), over the true "Israel of God" (Rom. 2:28-29; 9:6; 11; 1 Cor. 10:18; Gal.6:16- contrast Rev. 2:9 and 3:9). Who can deny such clear texts?

The "temple" is the Church (1 Cor. 3:16-17; Eph. 2:21; Heb. 8:2; 9:11). There has been an end to sacrifices (Dan. 9:27; Heb. 10) -- the veil was torn in two (Matt. 27:51/Mark 15:38/Luke 23:45). There is no future time of a 'restored temple & sacrifices' where God returns to the OT economy -- that is "retro-religion." Why return to the "weak and beggarly elements" (Gal. 4:9) of the Old Covenant, where the blood of sacrificed animals could never remove the stain of sin - such was not even possible (Heb. 10:4)! No, God has spoken in these last days by His Son (Heb. 1:2) concerning the New Covenant - "better" in every respect (2 Cor. 3:7-11; Heb. 7:19,22; 8:6; 9:23; 10:34; 11:40; 12:24).

The Church Age is no "unforseen parenthesis" as dispensationalists claim. No, to this "Church Age" the OT Prophets gave abundant witness - Ps. 72:11,17; 86:9; Isa. 2:2; 11:10; 42:6; 49:6; 54:3; 60:3; 61:9; 62:2; 66:12,18-19; Jer. 3:17; 4:2; 16:19; Dan. 7:13-14; Micah 5:8; Hag. 2:7; Zech. 2:11; 8:22-23; Mal. 1:11; Matt. 8:11; Mark 11:17; Luke 2:32; Rom. 15:8-12; Gal. 3:8. It is true that some aspects of it were "hidden" from their understanding (Eph. 3:2-11; Col. 1:25-28). But this does not mean, as dispensationalists often teach, that the Prophets were completely "in the dark." We are no 'accident' -- we are no 'plan B' that God was forced to resort to (see below) -- no, everything is right on schedule and going according to God's sovereign plan!

http://www.flash.net/~thinkman/articles/dispen.htm

3.

Amillennialism:
a.

"Advocates of this view maintain that no Millennium is to be looked for except that which, it is claimed, is in progress now in this gospel age. This theological interpretation spiritualizes or, rather, gives a mystical meaning to the vast kingdom promises in the OT. Zion is construed not to mean Zion but to refer to the Christian church."3
b.

The prefix "a" attached to a word negates the word to which it is attached (e.g., moral vs. amoral; Gnostic vs. agnostic; pistos [faith or belief] vs. apistos [faithless or unbelief]).
c.

"The millennium is viewed by interpreters in several different ways. One position holds that the millennium only refers to Christ's spiritual rule today from heaven. This symbolic view is known as the amillennial interpretation."4
d.

This is the minority view among Bible believers today and the understanding of conservative biblical interpreters, who make a distinction between figurative and literal language. Consequently, in the main, this is the conclusion regarding a millennial rule by Christ on earth to which the churches of Christ usually arrive.