[JMJ333]

We know the Church is indefectable in matters of faith and morals. Therefore, it is impossible for the bishops, in union with the pope, to err on a question of morals for the universal church. And since the “New Mass” is offered by the bishops in union with the pope, it is impossible for it to be immoral or invalid. If they think it is [and obviously they do], then then have lost faith in the indefectability of the Church. God help them.

[sitetest]

Dear JMJ333,

If you read a few posts further down, you will see that ultima ratio and the other anti-Catholic "traditionalists" around here have more in common with the Orthodox, whom the Holy Catholic Church regards as being in schism, than with Catholics.

sitetest

[ultima ratio]

You are confused. I never said the new Mass was invalid. It is valid all right--but only sometimes these days, when priests trouble to use the proper form, matter and intention. Unfortunately, more and more priests are celebrating invalid Masses these days. Nevertheless, I will grant that the Novus Ordo is valid, generally speaking. But having said that, this is not saying much. A Black Mass, too, is valid, but that doesn't make it a good thing.

What I have been trying to point out is that the New Mass, despite such validity, is nevertheless harmful to the faith. It has systematically destroyed belief in the Divinity of Christ and in the Real Presence for millions of Catholics. As Pius XII said in Mediator Dei, the rule of praying is the rule of faith. If a Mass has been so thoroughly secularized so as to remove all sense of the sacred, then belief itself is seriously diminished. This is what happens with the Novus Ordo.

The second point to be made is to distinguish between the ordinary and extraordinary Magisterium. The ordinary Magisterium is infallible ONLY in virtue of its repetition of a teaching or practice the Church has held since time immemorial. This would NOT include a novelty like the Novus Ordo which is doctrinally deficient and in open defiance of the Council of Trent. So your second point about indefectability would necessarily not apply.