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To: thinktwice; Kyrie
If we can't be certain of anything, how can you be certain in your faith? In a rational world, humans make mistakes and contradictions happen; and man's progress toward "truth" requires the answering of contradictions -- the result being revised truth awaiting further contradiction. When it settles, truth remains. That's the rational way. That's how knowledge is gained. That's why we have libraries containing books stuffed with recorded advances in knowledge. And that, is the essence of real-world epistemology. In contrast, mystical, matter of faith contradictions are beyond reason -- there is no way they can be rationally assessed. Instead, it is reason itself that must suffer in defense of faith.

Hey thinktwice, good questions! First, one cannot be certain of one's faith (which is why we use the word faith), since one may not prove the existence of God. However, the vast, vast majority of people in the world infer or intuit the existence of God, from many lines of evidence. And in a rational world (which this is not always), man does indeed resolve contradictions through reason (including in religious faiths). But what does he resolve contradictions in? There must be something (truth, and particularly moral truth) behind the raw material to which we apply reason. Rand HAD to have started with some notion of good and bad before she applied reason to produce her rational ethics (she might think 'freedom' is good, or bodily integrity is good, or non-interference in our personal affairs is good, or whatever). But those notions did not come from reason. More often than not, such notions are actually things we want. In the case of the major religions, such as Christianity, some of these things are such that we do not always want - hence one of the powerful needs for the religion. Libraries full of practical knoweldge (quark theory, medical information, how ant farms work, etc. etc.) do not have anything to do with deciding what is good and bad. (Yes, medicine can prolong your life. If you say that's good, you believe that prolonging life is good. The latter is not something derivable from reason.) Again, matter of faith beliefs can be contradictory, and need to be sorted out by reason. But there, one is applying reason to an existing morality which may have some wrinkles in it (though Christianity, as understood by most in this world, is remarkably self-consistent and free of such wrinkles). On your last statement, it's true in some sense that reason may suffer in the defense of faith. That is by far mostly the result of people trying to justify anything by their faiths - and often promoting actions which are blatantly immoral as per their faiths. If an axe-murderer commits his awful deeds in the name of Jesus Christ, that does not mean that Christianity or Christ himself would have condoned such actions.

110 posted on 09/03/2002 8:43:07 AM PDT by yendu bwam
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To: yendu bwam
I would argue that Christianity is completely free of those "wrinkles" There are no contradictions in Christs message. It is consistant and whole. Not only in and of itself, as a "stand alone" religion as it were...but also contradiction free as it regards the fulfillment of the prophets visions in the old testament. Now there are plenty of contradictions in the way that MAN practices the religion. That is a different thing altogether. My brother who is a deist but not a "christian per se" and I debate this regularly. Thinktwice I think suffers from the same malady as my brother. They see a contradiction in the way that a christian behaves versus what the bible says a christian should do. That contradiction trips them up. They see the hypocrasy/contradiction as a failing of faith and if the faith fails then what does that say about the religion. What they fail to understand is that that is precisely the point. We as christians are not perfect. No person is. I daresay there has only been and will only ever be one perfect Christian. If the expectation is that some metaphysical mystical tranformation in life so that all of a sudden every human who claims the mantle of christian is now christlike then who is it that believes in fantasies. Christianity recognizes us for the flawed creatures that we are. There is no transformation into a perfect person possible...that is why the price had to be paid in the first place. There is no contradiction in the philosophy. All of Judaeisms past prior to Christ being born pointed at his coming and pointed at exactly the transformation in the Word and the LAW that Christ brought. There is no contradiction in what it lay out and what it fullfils. It is only our inability to be perfect that makes it SEEM imperfect.

But Thinktwice's postions remind me of the man who rails against a god who would allow injustice never accepting that God never performed a single unjust act. It is like the sins of the father. If I stray is that Gods fault. If I behave horribly is that the fault of the Christian message...or is it my fault for not living up to the responsibility. Clearly it is my fault. That does not make Christ to blame. It certainly doesnt make his message a contradiction.
136 posted on 09/03/2002 1:26:26 PM PDT by Prysson
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