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The Theological Aesthetics of Hans Urs von Balthasar
La Salle University ^ | Joel Garver

Posted on 08/10/2002 5:45:29 PM PDT by JMJ333

**Note: it is difficult to outline any summary of Balthasar's thought, especially given the sheer magnitude of the Trilogy (15 volumes, each of which is over--often well over--300 pages!), not to mention the many other works which serve to elucidate and expand the central themes of the Trilogy itself thus the following is a rather selective survey of the Balthasarian corpus some themes are entirely passed over and others receive only scant attention .

Let’s return, then, to the basic problem of being which Balthasar sees as fundamental to human thought and philosophy. In particular let’s consider the problem of the One and Many which he sees as solved only in the revelation of the Triune God in the person of Christ in whom the concrete and the universal are joined.

The Problem of Being

Balthasar outlines three basic approaches that non-Christian philosophies have taken to the problem of being. First, there is pagan polytheism. Balthasar sees polytheism as essentially mythical. Myth functions to bring the transcendent into contact with our concrete world, representing, therefore, the immanence of the divine within the world or of the general within the particular. But in doing this the transcendent is reduced to the finite and becomes subject to human manipulation through magic.

Christ alone is the true myth, affirming that God may indeed be known in and through the world (true immanence) and yet is also truly transcendent and utterly distinct from any created thing. The formulation of Chalcedon affirms this and furthermore t hat Christ is no mere particular but a unique totality expressed concretely.

Second, there is mystical monism. Balthasar sees the reaction against polytheism in systems which posit the existence of a Unity, a transcendent "One." A version of monism is that of Buddhism and eastern thought which see this world as esse ntially maya, an illusion, leading to suffering due the failure to fulfill illusory desire. Only by setting aside such false desire and this illusory world do we arrive at the real, at nirvana—that is, nothingness. Balthasar notes that thi s is unsatisfactory since it cannot account for the origin of the illusion or why it causes us to suffer or why we suffer if suffering itself is an illusion. Moreover, its way of "salvation" is merely a kind of spiritual euthanasia.

The other version of the One is that of neo-Platonism which follows the via negativa, ascending to God by setting aside this world and its categories. This too is unsatisfactory since in the movement of the Many into the One, we are left withou t explanation of why the Many have arisen. Also it denies its own starting point in this world in order to solve the problem of this world. We are left, therefore, with a reality that is ultimately impersonal.

Third, there is Hegelian dialectics. This too is problematic since it denies the true transcendence of God since God needs the universe in order to express Himself as truly God. If that is the case, however. then God is not God. Furthermore, in Hegelianism the individual is sublimated within the Absolute and any individuality that is possible is only by a relation to the Other, but a relation in which the Other is reduced to a means of self-realization rather than an end in itself. Finally, Hegel is cheap on human suffering and death, turning them into a mere speculative necessity for some kind of negativity within the self-realization of Absolute Spirit.

Thus the choices we are left with are atheism (in its Buddhist, Platonic, or Hegelian versions) or Christ. All of the atheisms are essentially world denying, seeking for a solution a transcendent Nothing. Even Marxism places salvation in an ever post poned future. But in Christ the various antinomies of non-Christian thought are resolved.

Christ is both the eternal Logos and the eternally elected Man. He is God in human flesh. And this reality finds its origin in the life of the Trinity in whom Father, Son, and Spirit have eternally existed. Thus Otherness and difference are not exclu ded from ultimate reality. Since the Father has eternally been with the Son, Otherness has positive value and is the condition of possibility for the creation of a world which is not merely a falling away from the One or an accident of primordial violence, but is truly real in itself. Nor is the world a necessary self-realization of God’s own Absolute Being, for the infinite "space" of love between the Father and Son is already filled by the Spirit and it is into this "space" that the world is inserted.

So it is this Triune God, revealed in Christ, that is the solution to the problem of being—being which is beautiful, good, and true.

A Preliminary Overview

With these points in mind we can turn to Balthasar’s main aesthetic contention—God is supreme Beauty, who dwells in inaccessible light and has revealed Himself, become visible, in the Person of His Son, Jesus Christ. It is of the essence of Christian faith to fix our eyes upon Jesus and in Him see the glory of the Father. Balthasar points to 1 John 1:1-2:

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, concerning the Word of life, the Life made manifest and which we have seen and to which we bear witness and declare to you that eternal Life which was with the Father and was manifested to us…

Of course, this is for us, to a certain degree, metaphorical "sight" since the theological organ of perception is faith, not sight, and faith comes by hearing.

Along with Balthasar’s love of music and musical metaphors, this explains his emphasis on hearing the Word of God and perceiving His glory by the "eyes of faith." Faith, after all, involves surrender and hearing is the perceptual mode of surrender. S ight, on the other hand, involves dominance and distance. He writes:

The eye is the organ with which the world is possessed and dominated… Through the eye the world is our world, in which we are not lost; rather, it is subordinate to us as an immeasurable dwelling space with which we are familiar. The other side of this material function denotes distance, separateness…Hearing is a wholly different, almost opposite mode of the revelation of reality…It is not objects we hear—in the dark, when it is not possible to see—but their utterances and communications. Theref ore it is not we ourselves who determine on our part what is heard and place it before us as an object in order to turn our attention to it when it pleases us. That which is heard comes upon us without our being informed of its coming in advance. It lays hold of us without our being asked…The basic relationship between the one who hears and that which is heard is thus one of defenselessness on the one side and of communication on the other…The hearer belongs to the other and obeys him.

According Balthasar, despite the biblical emphasis on glory seen by the eyes of faith, the aesthetic dimension of theology has been gradually purged from western theology, both Protestant and Catholic. His seven-volume Herrlichkeit is an attemp t to compensate for that loss.

The first volume, Seeing the Form, defines the general scope, method, and purpose of the volumes and includes a general discussion of what Balthasar calls the "form" or "Gestalt" of the Lord Christ. Volumes two and three (which I will la rgely pass over here since they are nearly impossible to summarize) are the unfolding of historical examples of this aesthetic form as it is explicated by the early medievals (volume two: Studies in Theological Style: Clerical Styles) and by modern poets and lay thinkers (Lay Styles; a few of whom are not "lay" at all, but did lie outside of the mainstream of the Church). Included are folks such as Augustine, Pseudo-Dionysius, Anselm, Bonaventure (in volume two) and Dante, John of the Cross , Pascal, Hopkins, and others (in volume three). Volumes four and five undertake to examine the larger metaphysical context in which the form of Christ appeared (volume four: The Realm of Metaphysics in Antiquity) and in which it now cannot appear (volume five: The Realm of Metaphysics in the Modern Age). Some of his insights here have already been sketched in my earlier comments. Volumes six and seven deal with the theology of the Old and New Covenants, respectively, examining such issue s as their interrelation, how the New fulfills the Old, the glory of God in Old Covenant theophanies and the glory of Christ’s sufferings in the New Covenant.

Form and Faith

The fundamental idea of the aesthetics is relatively simple: in the Incarnation the very form (Gestalt) of God was definitively revealed providing a measure by which every other form is to be measured. This revelation, contrary to the practical elaboration of it in modern theology, is not merely a pointer to so mething beyond itself, but rather a manifestation of the form of Beauty itself in Christ.

But Balthasar’s aesthetics is not the subjectivism of 18th century aesthetic theory with its focus on the acts of perceiving that project one’s own interiority upon the object, leading to a beauty perceived within the self. Rather Balthasar ’s focus is on glory of the object itself apprehended by faith. For Balthasar the illumination that produces faith is itself an aesthetic act. The very object of faith itself—Jesus Christ—draws the beholder providing its own interior light. God Himself is the light by which we apprehend Him by faith.

Thus faith cannot be theorized in a narrowly intellectualistic or propositional fashion, simply as a "believing that" or as the acceptance of a set of facts. More so it involves a receptivity to the object of faith whereby one is so impressed b y it that faith necessarily ensues in obedience. Here Mary is the model in her "fiat" to God’s word—an active receptivity analogous to the receptivity of the womb.

This, in turn, raises questions as to the relation between faith and reason. Balthasar uses marital imagery, proposing that reason—womb-like—gives itself to faith to be made fruitful, not arguing itself into faith but allowing faith to come to fulfill ment within it. He rejects an apologetic approach that either, on one hand, appeals to the objectivity of historical events as pointers to divine realities or, on the other, maintains a fideistic approach that begins with human subjectivity. He writes:

For [apologetics] the heart of the matter should be the question: "How does God’s revelation confront man in history? How is it perceived?" But under the influence of a modern rationalistic concept of science, the question shifted ever more from its pr oper center to the margin, to be restated in this manner: "Here we encounter a man who claims to be God, and who, on the basis of this claim, demands that we should believe many truths he utters which cannot be verified by reason. What basis acceptable to reason can we give to his authoritative claims?" Anyone asking the question in this way has really already forfeited an answer, because he is at once enmeshed in an insoluble dilemma…Christ cannot be considered one "sign" among others…the dimmest idea of what a form is should serve as a warming against such leveling.

Jesus is the objective manifestation of God but reason, on its own, cannot see this, according to Baltahsar. God’s grace is necessary and by it reason is drawn into faith wherein it can see what is objectively there to be seen—that is, the revelation of God. Seeing and believing are complementary.

To put it another way, reason is necessary to seeing, but for the revelation to be truly seen, the revelation itself must enlighten the viewer to itself by grace. So faith is not merely subjective since it is not the believer who makes a leap, but ins tead it is the object of faith that draws the believer to Himself by His form of beauty.

According to Balthasar the experience of faith and the assurance or certainty of salvation (especially as that was posed by Luther) are closely related. While faith is something that is experienced, it is not the experience of faith itself in an intro spective and experiential fashion that gives assurance. Rather by faith we know Christ and the power of His resurrection and press on to the goal—it is in the receptive movement of faith towards its object that assurance is possessed, but this is a moveme nt that turns away from the self, towards Christ, and is grasped by Him.

Another emphasis of Balthasar is the materiality of Christian faith. It is not a pure mysticism or non-physical thing since God is revealed in the cosmos and, ultimately, in the Incarnation. He even maintains that in the eschaton the Beatific Vision will be mediated through the humanity of Christ. Moreover, while our awareness of God in the creation has been marred by sin, in Christ it is possible to begin to restore the materiality of God’s presence. This is seen foremost in the actions of the sacr aments by which Christ makes Himself present, in a sexuality that is transformed from egoistic self-gratification into self-offering love, and in the self-sacrificial love for the neighbor in deeds of service.

It follows from Balthasar’s emphasis on the materiality of faith that the mystical contemplation of God (the awareness of His presence) is inextricably tied to a life of activity. It must leave behind any world-denying Platonistic notions in favor a G od who is active in history culminating in the paschal mystery of Christ. So Bultmann’s demythologization is a gnostic attempt separate faith from history which ends up positing a transcendence that reintroduces the very mythological assumptions that the Incarnation had put to rest.

Balthasar goes on to examine the specific form that the beautiful revelation of God takes in Christ. Jesus demands faith in Himself as the historical form of the eternal God, who in His divinity has universal significance and who, in His humanity, is conditioned by historical contingency. Nevertheless, Christ is the express image of the Father, revealing the very form of the Trinitarian life of God in contrast to all religions which posit God as a formless One.

The work of Christ, says Balthasar, is the living exegesis of the Father since Christ’s existence as Son consists in His obedience at every moment actualizing the immediate will of the Father. Moreover, Christ draws us into this work by union with Him . He writes:

By his prayer and his suffering the Son brings his disciples—and through them, all mankind—into the interior space of the Trinity.

This form of God, though within time and history, is the utterly unique measure of relationship between God and man. Yet merely empirical and purportedly neutral scientific methods, with their suspension of judgment, cannot see this form for what it i s. That is only possible with the eyes of faith and an openness to the obedience the form demands from faith.

Old and New Covenant

In the final two volumes of the aesthetics Balthasar examines the definitive revelation of beauty—the glory of God revealed in Christ—as that is authoritatively given to us in the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments. The work of God as Creator is fulfilled in the work of God as Redeemer and so it is the creation itself which becomes of the means of God’s redemptive revelation. Human language, thought, actions, and the like are the very forms of God’s sel f-expression to us and so the form of revelation and the act of revelation are not to be separated.

According to Balthasar the Hebrew Scriptures in themselves are a puzzle, a promise pointing to a future that has not yet arrived. It is only in the light of the revelation in Christ that the OT makes sense. He writes:

The essential point is that Israel as a whole and existentially is an image and figure which cannot interpret itself.

The Old Testament poses the following problem: on one hand, God, who is faithful to His Word, the very Word by which the world was made, has called a people to Himself by mighty acts manifesting His glory. On the other hand, how can God remain faithfu l to His word in light of His glorious holiness when His people keep breaking the covenant He has established?

This Old Testament covenantal dynamic is seen in the increasing participation of Israel in the sphere of divine holiness (e.g., consider the 70 elders in the Pentateuch in contrast to Zechariah’s vision of the outpoured Spirit). At the same time, howe ver, the mighty acts of God, the evidence of the presence of His glory, become increasingly less prominent and more concealed (e.g., consider the deliverance of Israel in the Exodus as opposed to that which God worked through Esther). God presents Himsel f as ever more incomprehensible, yet, paradoxically, Israel is never surer of her God than when she seems to be forsaken by Him in exile.

The Old Testament leaves off with a fragmentary picture without any form by which the fragments may be brought together. Only with the revelation of Christ is a form given by which the Old Testament may be understood. Balthasar writes:

The individual forms which Israel established in the course of her history converge together upon a point that remains open and that cannot be calculated ahead of time on their basis of their convergence or their mutual relationship, especially since t hey stand in opposition to one another so often.

The revelation of Christ, therefore, is a manifestation of God’s glory that can embrace even the seemingly contradictory fragments of the Old Testament and this glory was ultimately revealed in Christ’s obedience even unto death on a Cross, in the ingl orious form of a slave. The power of God was manifest in powerlessness. This revelation is totally unexpected, beyond what could possibly be imagined.

First, however, is Christ’s claim for Himself not as One who merely points to a way to God but who is Himself the Way. Jesus brings people to crisis by His authority, by forcing the issue of the people’s acceptance or rejection of Him. His pre sence and questions make others transparent to themselves for this is the presence of One who is transparent to Himself. Jesus is therefore announcing Himself as God’s definitive Word.

In contrast to His authority, however, Jesus is also the one who became poor for our sakes and this theme of poverty can be seen in relation to three areas: prayer, the Holy Spirit, and faith. In regard to prayer we see Jesus offering Himself up to th e Father in Gethsemane. But in the "Our Father" that is given to us to pray we also have a similar model of humility before God and complete reliance upon Him (consider the petitions).

Jesus is also supremely gifted with the Spirit by whom He was conceived, who descended upon His in baptism, and so on. Yet Jesus not so much possesses the Spirit, but rather yields completely to the Spirit to be possessed by Him—from being driv en into the desert of temptation to finally offering Himself to God upon the cross through the eternal Spirit (Heb 9:14). By this total surrender to the Spirit He is able to give that same Spirit to us.

Balthasar, interestingly, also presents Jesus as a Man of faith—one who surrenders Himself to God in trusting perseverance, not by His own initiative, but in response to the prior faithfulness of the Father who, in grace, had chosen Him. Thereby Jesus is the "pioneer and perfecter of faith" (Heb 12:2), fulfilling the faith of Abraham even to the faithful obedience of the Cross, where, forsaken of God, He could only live by faith and not by sight. Jesus, therefore, is not merely a model of faith, but by our Baptism we are engrafted into the very faithfulness of Christ—Jesus believes in us so that we too believe and, in the work of faith, like Him, surrender ourselves to the Father.

Above all, however, it is the Johannine vision of Christ that most intrigues Balthasar: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, the glory of the Only Begotten of the Father" (John 1:14). But fo r John, the cross and the glorification of Christ are inseparable realities—coming from the Father, the Son’s whole life is one of glorifying the Father through obedience moving relentlessly toward his "hour" of glorification in powerlessness upon the Cross.

It is in the formless, the deformity (Ungestalt), of the Cross that the very form of God’s glory (Ubergestalt) is revealed as the boundless, self-giving love that characterizes the very life of the Trinity. This form of glory unseats all worldly aesthetics and all classical notions of beauty as proportion and harmony, making way for a new theological understanding of beauty in the Trinitarian dynamic of cruciform love seen by the eyes of faith. And that is the fundamental point that Bal thasar expresses in his aesthetics.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
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To: drstevej
I have raised the servetus account before. I believe that Calvin's participation in the event was a dark stain on not only his own life, but on the whole idea of the reformation. However the only time I have brought up the subject is when I find some hyper-Calvinist who appears not only to beleve in Calvin's doctrines, but also seems to worship the ground he walked on.

I have seen what I consider parralels between the unwavering support of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young desptie the evidence that they were very flawed men and some of the unwavering support I have seen for Calvin as a man rather than for Calvinism as a doctrine. Calvin, like all of us, was a very flawed man. I have a theory that if anyone lives long enough they will eventually disappoint everyone who thought they were something important.

While I admire Billy Graham both as a man and as an evangelist, nevertheless he has lived long enough to say some really boneheaded things. I would imagine its just a matter of time before I do, too. :-)

The key to the highway is to keep our eyes on Jesus and not to rest in the arm of flesh.

501 posted on 08/19/2002 8:55:29 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: White Mountain; Admin Moderator; rising tide
***When drstevej, who styles himself the "compassionate Calvinist", is making such personal attacks, and I call him on it, do I somehow become the attacker?***

Your failure to ping me to this post that references me is impolite. Your comments have been repeatedly addressed before. Nothing new.

As to your first point...

***Over the past two years, the worst of the Calvinist misbehavior was that they would try to put one person after another on trial, attacking their motives as base and vile, in an effort to convince them of spurious conversion, Total Depravity, and getting ready to burn in hell forever. (If they became convinced of these things, the Calvinists would then consider them saved.)

I have been protesting this consistently as abusive.

Is this now okay if the person they try to put on trial, and smear, is deceased?***

Pot. Kettle. Black

You repeatedly call me "unregenerate" which really does not phase me. However, your complain about me is hypocritical.

Post #494 & my reply #500 are instructive. Post #494 by rising tide tries and convicts a dead man, John Calvin, in a manner parallel to what WM accuses us of doing. My reply, post #500, simply offers historical clarification and points to a balanced assessment.

Actually, I personally could care less what is said about John Calvin; however I will seek to correct the historical record. If rising tide doesn't agree with me, I say "no big deal." He has the riight to be wrong.

WM, quit grasping at straws trying to get a thread yanked where the facts cause you anxiety.
502 posted on 08/19/2002 9:00:22 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: P-Marlowe
Calvin's humanity and flaws are open to historical investigation and result in a variety of conclusions. As long as the historical facts are accurately reported anyone is free to draw their own conclusions whether supported by evidence or not.

Discussion of Calvin and Servetus or Calvin and Gruet is not out of bounds for Free Republic. Let the lurkers judge whose assessment best reflects the facts presented.

Ditto for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
503 posted on 08/19/2002 9:08:12 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej; rising tide; restornu; White Mountain; xzins

The cry of "heresy," here, sounds like a wail from the Dark Ages -- a shriek from the Inquisition, or a groan from the grave of Calvin.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/735978/posts
504 posted on 08/19/2002 9:16:49 PM PDT by Itsfreewill
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To: Itsfreewill
I read the article and your comment. You comment certainly reflects the biased language of the article.

You might want to read William Monter's, Calvin's Geneva for a scholarly treatment. Or, alternatively, you may chose to cling to this perspective, I really do not care which.
505 posted on 08/19/2002 9:25:37 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Ditto for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.

Anytime anyone sets themselves up as a prophet of God, I am going to apply the test of a prophet as set forth in scripture. the test is not to pray that God reveal unto the truth of your testimony that this guy is a true prophet of God. God didn't say that if you want to know if some guy is a true prophet or a false prophet you are to pray for some kind of sign--a burning in the bosom. No! God set forth specific instructions on how to tell the real thing from the phoney.

Deu 13:1 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
Deu 13:2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that
prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

Deu 18:20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
Deu 18:21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
Deu 18:22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

That is the test of a prophet. Now I suggest that if anyone wants to know if Joseph Smith or Brigham Young is a true prophet or a false prophet then they should use the test set forth by God and not look for a burning bosom sign to confirm their delusion. For if anyone decides to ignore the evidence of the truth and decides instead to follow a false prophet, God has another promise for them An airtight testimony that the false gospel is true.

Anyone doubt me on this, then read this:

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Now lets all talk about where that unflinching testimony to that which is empirically untrue probably came from, shall we?

506 posted on 08/19/2002 9:33:22 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: drstevej; rising tide; RnMomof7
Your #502: Your failure to ping me to this post that references me is impolite.

You are right. I usually am careful to do that. My mistake. I apologize.

Regarding rising tide's #494, I FRmailed him about that, but did not get his reply before you posted. I have seen the Arminians bring up a lot of similar material in the past, and you guys are quite skilled in responding to it.

Your response regarding putting people on trial, impugning people's motives, etc.:

>> Pot. Kettle. Black

I don't accept that, nor do I accept the repeated charges of hypocrisy. I do call your behavior unregenerate when it is.

Putting people on trial systematically, relentlessly, bashing their motives, is dishonest unregenerate personal-attack behavior and I will not be dragged into it, nor will I be put on the defensive by it if I can help it.

I need more support than I am getting from the moderators to have abusive posts and threads pulled. They are too lenient.

I have had far more than my fill of it over the past two years here, whether it was new posters to Calvinist threads who used to get accosted (Terry was one), or my own early Church leaders who used to be put on trial for doctrine, and now are put on trial with racist and sexist charges.

My long experience on the receiving end of it says this putting-people-on-trial stuff is dishonest, illegitimate, unregenerate, unjust behavior, for which you guys have no credibility whatsoever, just an attack vehicle, and I advise everyone to avoid it so you guys don't claim that everybody does it (though you probably will anyway based on recent experience).

507 posted on 08/19/2002 11:00:26 PM PDT by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain
I appreciate the apology for the ping oversight.

--Steve
508 posted on 08/19/2002 11:06:28 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: Admin Moderator
Flag to #507 because I mentioned you guys.
509 posted on 08/19/2002 11:11:54 PM PDT by White Mountain
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To: White Mountain
***I need more support than I am getting from the moderators to have abusive posts and threads pulled. They are too lenient.***

Actually, I have found them very co-operative the few times I have asked a post to be pulled. Every one of my requests has been acted upon and the post was pulled -- I assume because they considered the request reasonable.
510 posted on 08/19/2002 11:12:37 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
Thanks.
511 posted on 08/19/2002 11:13:08 PM PDT by White Mountain
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To: Admin Moderator
Flag to #510 as well.
512 posted on 08/19/2002 11:14:22 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: drstevej
I have not heard a word from them, so I do not know what they think.
513 posted on 08/19/2002 11:14:57 PM PDT by White Mountain
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To: Admin Moderator; Jim Robinson; Polycarp; the_doc; Jerry_M; xzins
Jim has set up a new forum where the rules against flaming are a bit relaxed. These threads over here have been a long problem for us, since they too often turn into flame wars. Now that this new forum is set up, we are going to be cutting back on the flames in the other forums. If you want to have discussions that are more heated and can have flames, then you may want to consider posting a copy of the thread in the Smoky Back Room forum and have it out over there. Other than that, please try to avoid flaming and personal attacks in the other forums. Thanks, AM

I have long said that one of the Singular Virtues of Free Republic is this:

Free Republic serves all comers on these "taboo" subjects. And may God bless this enterprise for doing so.

Thanks to Jim Robinson and the Moderators for affording us the solace of a Place where we may still argue the implications of the idea that stuff matters. Words mean things. Ideas have consequences.

It's nice to have a place to come and discuss matters on that basis.

514 posted on 08/19/2002 11:29:44 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: White Mountain; drstevej
I need more support than I am getting from the moderators to have abusive posts and threads pulled. They are too lenient.

For shame... Don't you think your, "I want him banned, and I want him banned, and him over there banned too because he made me unhappy today" Posts get a little tiresome, WM?

The Moderators have ensured that the StormFront Race Jihadists get banned the day they log onto Free Republic, the posted Profanity has been reduced to a dull roar, the Personal Attacks are kept to within the bounds of anyone with more than a water-lily for an emotional constitution....

And still you're throwing tantrums.

...Don't you have better things to do??

515 posted on 08/19/2002 11:40:53 PM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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To: White Mountain; Admin Moderator; Jim Robinson
I really don't think this is right to allow out right lies and the needed extra efforts to search out facts and to defend the reputation only to be ignored, dismissed and pull an canard out of the hat!

A slander can used methods that are damn if you do, and damn if you don't question like sleazy reporters who asked questions such as

***

"DO YOU STILL BEAT YOUR WIFE?"

***

This type of questioning is discusting and very malicious.

Now the worst part is the person who use this type of tactic turn the example around and said one of us was accusing him of beating his wife!

NOW THAT HURT! Not only was the person who was using this unscrupulous type of bashing the LDS, this person turn it around this complaine and made himself out as the victim saying one of us accused him of doing this WHEN WE WERE COMPLAINING OF THE UNDERHAND METHOD ON THE LDS!

I always felt about this kind of manner made me think of Reagan when he would say "THERE YOU GO AGAIN!" and so make my point I would say "THERE YOU GO WITH THOSE WIFE BEATING QUESTIONS! NO WAY DOES THIS MEAN THE THE PERSON USING THIS METHOD IS BEATING THEIR WIFE! IT MEANS YOU ARE ACCUSING THE LDS OF A DAMN IF YOU DO AND DAMN IF YOU DON'T QUESTION! we tried to get that thread pull for behaving that way to the LDS, you FOLKS WERE DEATH EARS, AND WHEN SOME ONE LIES AND TURNS AROUND AN AFFLICTION TO BENEFIT THEMSELVES, THEY GET IT PULLED.

Now our doctrine is different, so when the Trinitarians go at each other they still have a common bond. When we tried to defend ourselves the trinitrarians will all gang up on us at times. We use to have a common bond with some of the trinitarian on the Freewill concept. But I guess they were so harrassed by the Predestian to disown the LDS all togather, so we were completely out of the loop!

There were times the LDS did stop posting, but we would read even in their own post they would take swipes and distort our doctrine of the LDS when we were not there to defend ourselves, and we felt this was not proper and was forced to defend our faith!

I believe in looking for common ground and in this way we get along in the world, where people that are civilized. It we did not have our Constitution their would be endless religious wars for some folks can not appreciate good neightrbors if than are not in lock step!

Thank you for hearing my compalint!

PS I am limited in my way of posting so caps is not yelling just change in exprssion!

PLEASE THEIR IS NO REASON TO HASH OVER THE "THERE YOU GO AGAIN!" OR "ARE YOU STILL USING THOSE WIFE BEATING QUESTIONS!"

YOUR NAME WAS NOT MENTION NOR FLAGGED!

516 posted on 08/20/2002 12:45:46 AM PDT by restornu
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To: Admin Moderator
The Sad part of this is that the LDS are encourage not to bash, We try to find ways to share the common ground in all believes. We try to build bridges and friendships.

But it seems we are always forced to defend and at times get hard hitting, for us it is not good for it disturbs our relationship with the Holy Spirit! So Smokey Backroom is non productive!

517 posted on 08/20/2002 12:58:51 AM PDT by restornu
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Your politeness and effusive compliments would overwhelm me (if there were any), however, your choice of ridicule as your theme and your exaggerations leave your post dripping with insincerity. Have a nice day! 8o)

Better get the mop, OPie, the floor by now is a big gooey mess!

518 posted on 08/20/2002 2:45:21 AM PDT by White Mountain
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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
>> Translation: "I failed to permanently Censor and Ban OP, so I am now targetting you, SteveJ".

Your translation isn't any good. I said: Predatory attackers will not stop until they are banned. That is entirely up to the predatory attacker whether they stay that way or not. Then it is JimRob's call.

519 posted on 08/20/2002 2:53:01 AM PDT by White Mountain
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To: restornu
"The Sad part of this is that the LDS are encourage not to bash, We try to find ways to share the common ground in all believes. We try to build bridges and friendships."

Why not "fellowship" with Bahai, they seem to share your goal.

520 posted on 08/20/2002 6:13:16 AM PDT by Jerry_M
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