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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian
Yup. And, as Calvinists have always maintained, Human Choices are indeed free and are real.

Yea, Calvinists try to make words mean anything they want them to mean, so what else is new?

But of course, you do not decide for God whether or not He will warn you of the dangers of the Gambit. He decides for Himself whether or not He will warn you of the dangers of the Gambit. (Indeed, before He even created You, and the chess-board, He omnitemporally foreknew the ultimate outcomes of the differing Potential time-streams which would result from differing Elective choices on His part. (To perform Miracles in Sodom, or to not perform Miracles in Sodom... etc.)

One, in Calvinism there cannot be any other 'scenaros' since everything is done by God's Directive will, thus, it is one Eternal Decree that would not have any alternatives.

Alternatives only come into play when God is responding to mankinds decisions.

Adam might not have sinned and history would have been different.

That is a real option.

In Calvinism that 'alternative' could not exist since God did not want it, thus, Adam was always decreed to Fall, and the 'alternative' would not be a real one.

Regarding, Sodom and Tyrie, yes, they would have responded to the miracles, and not have to been regenerated first.

How can a spiritually dead man (in Calvinism) respond to anything unless first regenerated.

It is only then that the miracles can be beleved in.

In that, case the miracles are irrelevant since God could have regenerated Sodom if He has wanted to and with or without miracles.

Thus, it was always His decree to condemn Sodom (according to Calvinism) and no other alternative would have been possible since they were never unconditionally elected

Sodom and Gomorah did have enough evidence to believe which they rejected (Rom.1), as the Jews were rejecting even more.

Thanks for proving the Absolute-Predestinarian position. Or should I say... Check-Mate.

Now, that is funny!

You are nothing more then a determinist who believes that circumstances dictate action.

You are no different then B.F. Skinner.

324 posted on 08/11/2002 4:25:00 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: fortheDeclaration; the_doc; P-Marlowe; CCWoody; Jerry_M
One, in Calvinism there cannot be any other 'scenaros' since everything is done by God's Directive will, thus, it is one Eternal Decree that would not have any alternatives.

You're wrong on this; you've always been wrong on this; no matter how many timnes you repeat this incorrect Straw Man, you'll still be wrong on this.

Calvinism acknowledges that PRIOR TO Creation, God has an INFINITE number of Creative Potentialities available to the Power of His Omnipotence and perfectly foreknown to His Omniscience. Calvinists have ALWAYS believed this to be True.

Only AFTER God ordains specifically to Create, does that particular Potentiality become Reality -- that, and none other (for example, the Potentiality in which God would perform miracles in Sodom and thereby bring them to Repentance was omnitemporally foreknown to God, but it was NOT the scenario which He actually determined to Create).

And, since God's Elective Decisions in Creation pre-determine what Man's Choices will be, God absolutely Predestines all things (as your "Chess" example just proved, quite neatly).

Alternatives only come into play when God is responding to mankinds decisions.

A blatant LIE against Christ from the idolatrous heretic FtD. Jesus Christ specifically said that God had the alternative of performing Miracles in Sodom, and that God's choice whether or not to perform Miracles was NOT determined by Sodom's choice to repent or not, but in fact God's choice (to Perform miracles, or to Not Perform miracles) had the effect of pre-determining what Sodom's choice would be (to Repent, or to Not Repent). For you to say that God did not have this Alternative available to the Power of His Omnipotence is to call Christ a Liar and to call God a Fraud. Again you pile blasphemy upon blasphemy in defense of your Papish Arminianism.

Adam might not have sinned and history would have been different. That is a real option. In Calvinism that 'alternative' could not exist since God did not want it, thus, Adam was always decreed to Fall, and the 'alternative' would not be a real one.

Your "Straw Man" against Calvinism is baseless. You have not demonstrated Calvinist predestination to be false; but (by your Chess example), you have demonstrated Absolute pre-determination to be true.

And we thank you for doing so. :-)

Regarding, Sodom and Tyrie, yes, they would have responded to the miracles, and not have to been regenerated first.

Balderdash. God can certainly use Miracles as an Agency of Regenerating Grace, of course. Who are you to tell Him that He can't? Oh, nevermind, you're the Blasphemer-against-Christ who claims "God has no alternative" except to respond to Man.

How can a spiritually dead man (in Calvinism) respond to anything unless first regenerated.

God can certainly use Miracles as an Agency of Regenerating Grace, of course. Who are you to tell Him that He can't? Oh, nevermind, you're the Blasphemer-against-Christ who claims "God has no alternative" except to respond to Man.

It is only then that the miracles can be beleved in. In that, case the miracles are irrelevant since God could have regenerated Sodom if He has wanted to and with or without miracles.

Balderdash. God can certainly use Miracles as an Agency of Regenerating Grace, of course. Who are you to tell Him that He can't? Oh, nevermind, you're the Blasphemer-against-Christ who claims "God has no alternative" except to respond to Man.

Thus, it was always His decree to condemn Sodom (according to Calvinism) and no other alternative would have been possible since they were never unconditionally elected

On the contrary. Before Creation, God was under no obligation to create Sodom at all, nor was He under any obligation to permit the Fall and thereby allow Sodom to fall under the Condemnation of Adam, nor was He under any obligation to withhold the miracles which He foreknew would brinmg about Repentance.

All of these Options were freely available to God's Elective Omnipotence. Who are you to tell God that He did not have these alternatives? Oh, nevermind, you're the Blasphemer-against-Christ who claims "God has no alternative" except to respond to Man.

Well, as always, you're wrong. Prior to Creation, God had an infinite number of Creative potentialities available to the Power of His omnipotence, and the ultimate outcomes of each and every one were foreknown to His omnitemporal foreknowledge (to not create Sodom at all; to perform Miracles and thereby pre-determine Sodom's repentance; to NOT perform miracles and thereby pre-determine Sodom's NON-Repentance, etc)... and God Elected to create the Potentiality which He chose to create, thereby pre-determining that the foreknown Ends of THAT Creation would actually come to pass, and none other (if He chooses to create the scenario in which He elects to NOT perform miracles in Sodom with the Foreknowledge that they will therefore NOT repent, then His Election has made it absolutely certain that they will not repent -- for His omnitemporal foreknowledge of the results of His Elections is perfect, and cannot be mistaken).

Sodom and Gomorah did have enough evidence to believe which they rejected (Rom.1), as the Jews were rejecting even more.

Of course. My point is, God could have chosen to create the Scenario in which He foreknew that they would Repent in response to His performance of miracles, and God could have chosen to create the Scenario in which He foreknew that they would NOT Repent in response to His NON-performance of miracles.

Ergo, His Decision DETERMINED what their Decisions would actually be.

As you own "chess" example so beautifully proves.

You are nothing more then a determinist who believes that circumstances dictate action. You are no different then B.F. Skinner.

On the contrary. Unlike B.F. Skinner, I believe that God is in total control of all aspects of Human Destiny.

You do not.

332 posted on 08/11/2002 10:42:07 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian
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