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John Paul II — The Face of Love
e3mil.com ^ | 8/6/02 | James Bemis

Posted on 08/06/2002 5:10:58 PM PDT by nickcarraway

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To: allend
Truly said
61 posted on 08/07/2002 8:58:59 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: ultima ratio
As a matter of fact, I've read Crossing the Threshold of Hope. i found it indecipherable

Yet you think yourself capable of judging the Pope who wrote it. No arrogance there....

63 posted on 08/07/2002 9:00:44 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: redhead
Amazing Grace and Rock of Ages (nice, but Protestant, of course),

Just curious. How do those hymns reject Catholic Doctrine?

64 posted on 08/07/2002 9:02:45 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
You are talking nonsense. The priests of the SSPX and the people who attend their Masses are just plain ordinary decent Catholics who are fed up like myself with the Novus Ordo agenda. One thing I notice though--they are not going around slandering others.
65 posted on 08/07/2002 9:06:18 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Catholicguy
You are showing your ignorance. "We resist you to your face" is a quote from the NT. It referred to Paul's resistance to Peter on a matter of principle. Paul was right, too. Those who signed that tract were in good company.
66 posted on 08/07/2002 9:10:54 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Bud McDuell
"The Pope is not to take the blame for everything but he must take responsibility for some of the things that have gone on under his tutelage."

Playing the ignorant youngster here, again.

Do we blame President Bush for the scadals emerging regarding illegal loans and shady accounting in the corporate world? Practices that began four, five years before he took office? On this fourm, generally, no.

Then why should we blame the current pope for installations which occured under his predecessor. Most of the allegations are centered around cardinals and bishops who have been in their posts for a very long time. Those who have been installed by JPII have many times been described as "cold fish" and "just too conservative" to my ears. Most of them are trying their best to clean up at least parts of the mess.

Put the blame where it belongs. Not on this pope, but those who came before him. It's taken 24 years for His Holiness to develop a trusted circle. One of them is my archbishop. He's not a hugger and not excessively effusive, but a dignified man who has done much to reverse some of the damage here.
67 posted on 08/07/2002 9:13:28 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: Catholicguy
How do those Protestant hymns reject Catholic doctrine? They don't. They just shore up the general Protestant atmospherics. It's the N.O. Mass itself that rejects Catholic doctrine, particularly transubstantiation and the Real Presence. But you don't really want to go there, do you? You proved you know very little about liturgic problems on another thread.
68 posted on 08/07/2002 9:17:13 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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Comment #69 Removed by Moderator

To: Bud McDuell
I've been working in Toronto this summer and I went to the World Youth Day Papal Mass to see the Pope. I've never stood in the middle of a crowd of 800,000 people and felt completely alone at the same time.

John Vennari described the atmosphere of the event accurately. There is little I can add to his description. I am dismayed to think that the World Youth Day Mass was displayed as an exemplar of the modern Catholic Church at prayer. I couldn't believe the organizers would insult the Pope by staging an event--barely a Mass--with all the solemnity and dignity of a Grateful Dead concert.

70 posted on 08/07/2002 9:28:02 AM PDT by Loyalist
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Comment #71 Removed by Moderator

To: Bud McDuell
What is happening is called beating the enemy using it's own game - gradual turning. When the pope was elected in 1978, there's NO WAY he could have just fired everybody and kept the whole thing together. In the climate of that decade, there's no way it would have worked. We are now finding out that that was the height of the decadence.

Communism, as a major player, had to be vanquished first. For the most part, that was accomplished. And this pope is given a portion of the credit for it's fall.

I cannot help but think that the new irrelevence of the major, mass media will play a role.

It will happen, but not overnight.

As to Archbishop Rigali - specifics...the liturgical changes are gradual, maybe one or two a year, back to Latin for the Sanctus, Angus Dei, etc., screens back in the Confessionals (this one is proving tough to implement), Baptisms are not done during Mass, there's more. EVERY parish is required to have Eucharistic Adoration, preferably once a week. The seminary, I'm not completely sure. That's still pretty much off limits. The Marriage Tribunal no longer just signs off. It's tougher to get an annulment, people who are seeking them tell me. Men in violation of ANY part of Canon Law are refused for the Deaconate. Things have changed around here.
72 posted on 08/07/2002 9:40:34 AM PDT by Desdemona
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To: nickcarraway
...she recalled the moment repeatedly before crowds of journalists. "When I stood in front of the Pope, I just got dizzier and dizzier," she said.

This explains a lot.
73 posted on 08/07/2002 9:57:42 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Catholicguy; RnMomof7; drstevej; CCWoody; Jerry_M
Amazing Grace and Rock of Ages (nice, but Protestant, of course)...

Not merely Protestant, but fire-breathing Calvinist hymns.

Are you so sure you really like them? Given this news of Calvinist hymns in Catholic mass, I have to wonder if Jansenism will resurge and Augustine's doctrines of grace might make a comeback.
74 posted on 08/07/2002 10:05:00 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
***fire-breathing Calvinist***

Redundant, deduct five points. :-)
75 posted on 08/07/2002 10:21:55 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: Loyalist
I couldn't believe the organizers would insult the Pope by staging an event

It is easy to see the difference in your account and Vennari. You blame the organisers

76 posted on 08/07/2002 10:28:25 AM PDT by Catholicguy
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Comment #77 Removed by Moderator

To: drstevej
Given this news of Calvinist hymns in Catholic mass, I have to wonder if Jansenism will resurge and Augustine's doctrines of grace might make a comeback.

The doctrines of Jansenism regarding salvation and grace are virtually indistinguishable from Calvinism; on the other hand, they diverge less from Catholic doctrine than does the universalism preached in so many Catholic churches today.

However, the moral rigour of the Jansenists and their deep, abiding love for the Sacrament of Communion would be a welcome corrective for a Church of which most members have lost their sense of sin and their respect for the Body of Christ. In that regard, I wish I could better imitate their example.

78 posted on 08/07/2002 10:37:49 AM PDT by Loyalist
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To: George W. Bush; Loyalist
ping post #78. It was GWB's quote.

I am not an authority on the Jansenist by any means, but what I have read was fascinating.
79 posted on 08/07/2002 10:42:12 AM PDT by drstevej
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To: nickcarraway
August 7, 2002 - WorldNetDaily.Com

The most admired man on earth

by Patrick J. Buchanan

Surely, he is the most politically incorrect leader on earth. He calls abortion a sin against God and murder of the innocent. He calls homosexuality unnatural and immoral. He opposes all extra-marital sexual relations. He is old, stooped and suffering from Parkinson's, and slurs his words. He is decried by elites as a hopeless reactionary.

Yet he remains the most beloved leader on earth. In Canada, Central America and Mexico, millions traveled miles to get a glimpse of him. Not even the president of the United States can draw crowds like this. National leaders who deplore all that he preaches find ways to be photographed beside him.

What explains the extraordinary attraction Pope John Paul II has, especially for the young? It cannot be the novelty of a papal visit. For this papacy is 23 years old, and he is the most traveled pope in history. And he long ago lost the charismatic vigor of his early years.

Clearly, it must have to do with the saintliness of the man and the strength of his message ­ a message at war with what the secular world teaches about how to live. The young are seeking something this man has, and the world has not.

"How many divisions does the pope have?" Stalin mocked, when FDR suggested Pius XII might be consulted on Europe's fate. And where is Stalin now? Where are his divisions? Gone to graveyards, every one.

"We're more popular than Jesus now," said John Lennon. And where are the Beatles now?

Yet the church John Paul heads has lasted 2,000 years, through schism, heresies and scandals far worse than what a few shameful priests have done to her in the United States.

Which leads one to believe that this crisis, too, shall pass, and the pope is putting the scandal in its proper place. For this is not a scandal of orthodoxy or church law. It is a scandal that came about from a failure of bishops to maintain orthodoxy and heed church law. Why should devout Catholics listen to our latest reformers, the TV sackcloth-and-ashes crowd, when this scandal is the product of having listened to the old reformers?

Pope Paul VI warned after Vatican II that the smoke of Hell had entered the vestibule of the church. Today's scandal is a result of a failure to follow Church teaching (and common sense) and keep homosexuals out of the seminaries, out of the priesthood and away from children.

The Boy Scouts resisted ­ unfortunately, many bishops did not.

As the world has hated me, so also it will hate you, Christ said. But in America, too many bishops and cardinals were willing to yield to the demands of the world, because they could not endure being hated by the world. But John Paul II was not among them. Apparently, he never bothered reading the New York Times.

As in every scandal, enemies and opportunists have seized on this one to propagandize for their "reform" agenda: an end to celibacy, women priests, a "more tolerant" attitude toward homosexuality and abortion, a more "democratic" church.

But, again, it was not a too-rigorous adherence to orthodoxy that gave us this scandal, but the opposite ­ laxity in following church law. And Catholics have before them a textbook example of what becomes of a traditional church that ends celibacy and ordains women and homosexuals: the Episcopal Church. Anyone want to follow that example?

Up in Boston, and now across America, a new group, Voice of the Faithful, has arisen. Says one of its leaders, James Post: "People are saying, 'We don't want to put money into a moral rat hole that is going to be siphoned off for legal feels, public relations, spin control for more secrecy and deceiving people.'"

Amen to that. Adds Voice Vice President Mary Calcaterra: "We are confident of the legitimate call the Spirit is sending to us."

But is Mary sure exactly which "Spirit"? There is another besides the Holy Spirit who might see in Catholic disillusionment an opportunity to undermine Faith and damage the Church.

During Vatican II, the secular press celebrated the dissenters who flocked to Rome to reform the Church. They succeeded, and did great damage, which can be measured today in reduced attendance at Sunday Mass and fewer vocations. Yet, the papacy, which they failed to reform, endures. And while the dissenters are now all dead and forgotten, this authoritative pope yet inspires.

We do not need a more democratic Church. History's graveyards are full of those. The Church needs more brave orthodox bishops like the bishop of Rome. Like the Marines, we need a few good men.


 

80 posted on 08/07/2002 11:00:02 AM PDT by ex-snook
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