MAN OF THE SHROUD

Various ^ | August 2002

[RnMomof7]

I live my faith through my life, as best I can, with the grace that He has given me. Sometimes (most times, IMO) words are hollow and much to easy to say. I'd rather be like Mother Teresa than be like Benny Hinn.

Me too..he is an abomination and a heretic..as are many that show their face on TV..

Colleen words mean things. God chose to have the NT written in Greek because it is the MOST precise language. He did that to be as clear as possible..Doctrine is important..correct doctrine saves ..incorrect does not

We argue over the meaning of words because Gods word is precious to us ..each and evey one..

We see each other as brothers and sisters.We do not doubt each others salvation or relationship with God..we do not agrue over the end only the means....

Scripture tells us to be ready with an answer..to contend for the faith

Wander in sometimes and throw your two cents in..you are always welcome girl

[RnMomof7]

Hey follow the thread back I did not bring up Calvinism ...I gave a personal opinion on the shroud..Calvinism was brought up by you guys ( a Catholic calvin bashing rant) ..you can dish it out but can't take it..now go whine about thread highjacking and Catholic bashing ..

[RnMomof7]

BTW it was HumanaeVitae that asked for the discussion on this thread..if you go back and read you will see I have invited he and Colleen to a protestant thread..

You need to get your facts straight

[american colleen]

Sorry Terry.

1 Timothy Chapter 2, vs 3 & 4
This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Because God is omniscient, he knows who will go to Heaven, but he does not will anyone to go to Hell. Therefore, by His Grace, we work out our own Salvation in fear and trembling...and we have to take care lest we fall - sounds like free will, IMO.

So you think God created human beings purely destined for Hell? Thus He is the creator of evil?

[RnMomof7]

All men are worth of Hell Colleen..It is a miracle that He chose to save any...

No one will be in hell that did not reject the gospel and choose to be there..

[american colleen]

You did not address the 1 Timothy quote I gave.

In your "theory", God must then, create unrepentant evil.

Do you believe the angels have the Grace of God?

[RnMomof7]

I am no theologin Colleen ..what I do know is that evil only exists because God allows it...He allows that evil to exist that He uses for his purposes..(Yes God uses evil)

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

Amo 3:6   Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done [it]?

Act 4:28   For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

We must consider that out of the evilk acts of men some prophecy has been fulfilled

[ultima ratio]

Thanks. I will get the text you recommend. I've read three or four other works on this and the evidence for its authenticity is compelling. The corresponding bloodstains clinched it for me.

[JesseShurun]

Yes, and if God wills that all children should be born and He has a hand in their conception (Eve-- I have gotten a man from the Lord) then why does mankinds cultures so often condemn women who have them? Especially so called religious cultures. Even children of rape and incest should have a life. Look at that poor thing in Nigeria that they are going to stone for having a child. Not for having sex, mind you, but for having a baby. And the man who participated, walks. God's will is good, man's will is something else.

[Catholicguy]

Hey follow the thread back I did not bring up Calvinism ...I gave a personal opinion on the shroud..Calvinism was brought up by you guys ( a Catholic calvin bashing rant) ..you can dish it out but can't take it..now go whine about thread highjacking and Catholic bashing ..

<> I didn't say you started the calvinist exchange.<>

You came onto this thread and your Calvinist chorus chimed in amening about how Catholics don't believe thus and such and how we are superstitious and dont beleive the Bible blah, blah, blah,<>

As you always do when you join these threads, you begin with the specific content of the thread and they rapidly generalise to your laundry list of your false charges against Catholicsm. It is boring....Boring...Boring. It is always the same old stuff....<>

<> You are obsessed....This thread is yet another example of what happens far too frequently. This has degenerated into a typical Calvinist complaint-a-thon and the interesting subject matter is being ignored. <>

I call on all Catholics to quit responding to the recalcitrant Calvinists. Clearly, there is nothing to be gained. Let them have their own threads. Ignore them from now on

[american colleen]

I call on all Catholics to quit responding to the recalcitrant Calvinists.

OK, no problem for me! Waste of time, anyway.

I am today expecting (via UPS) the "Shroud" book that NYer originally referred to early on in this thread! I can't wait! And it is my night off from work! And my husband isn't coming home for supper! And I don't have to cook! And I can go to bed early with the book! LIFE IS GOOD!

[Catholicguy]

LOL I agree. I love getting a new book and just diving in....

[RnMomof7]

Waiting for a reply..a whole day has passed


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/727062/posts?page=218#218

[HumanaeVitae]

Ok. Why don't you close up the NKJV for a moment an use some logic.

Let's say everyone becomes a Calvinist and believes in predestination. Either you're predestined to be saved or you are not and you can't do anything about it. See post #166.

Why would anyone behave ethically? Why would anyone go to church? Why wouldn't everyone simply behave in a depraved manner.

Now ask yourself this. Why do mainline Protestants reject predestination? Answer: because without free will Christianity is useless.

You can throw up all the Bible quotes you want. Until you answer this fundamental, inescapable contradiction in the doctrine of predestination then we're done talking.

If you can't see this contradiction, then you've apparently turned your brain off.

[RnMomof7]

Waiting for your reply

here http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/post?id=727062,218

[Wrigley]

Why would anyone behave ethically? Why would anyone go to church? Why wouldn't everyone simply behave in a depraved manner

One reason, God demands it of us. And since we are saved, we do these things to praise God and give Him glory.

Why do you do these things?

[Jean Chauvin]

"I am very familiar with the NKJV and Douay Bible. And predestination isn't in either. By the way, you haven't gotten around to refuting my definition of predestination."

As Mom has allready demonstrated, you simply don't know what you are talking about. I haven't seen such ignorance since Patriotic Teen.

"Ask yourself this: Calvinism was one of the first Protestant denominations in this country."

Why do you insist on continuing to demonstrate your ignorance. 'Calvinism' ~isn't~ a denomination! It isn't even the 'official' name for a theology. It's a common nickname. The 'official' name for the theology is 'Reformed'.

"Yet other Protestant sects quickly eclipsed Calvinism. Why? Answer: predestination is not only false doctrine, but it doesn't sell all that well."

Well, when one bases their thinking in ignorance, the rest of their thinking falls apart quite quickly.

The Puritans brought Reformed theology to this 'land'. That would be, oh, around the 1500's. They were soon followed by the Dutch Reformed who established the Reformed Church in America in the 1630's (it's currently the oldest active denomination established in this country). The ~greatest~ evangelist this country has known was George Whitefield (even according to many non-calvinists) lived in the 1700's. Calvinism was ~the~ majority position in this 'land' (by far) for nearly 350 years! So, it took 300-350 years for Calvinism to be 'eclipsed' in this country. This is quick? (It gets even worse when you consider these Calvinists who came over here so long ago were not new converts. They were immigrants to this land. Their theology was thus continuous. It was continuous back to the reformation itself.)

Furthermore, your statement seems to suggest that the validiy of a specific theology is based on the (relative) speed of which it is abandoned. Putting aside the obvious logical fallacies this incorporates, what does this suggest for O.T. Jews who -nearly overnight- rejected the God of the Bible and erected a golden calf in its place. All this was done with God himself just a few hundred feet above their camp. Wow, so much for validity of the God of the Bible -according to your thinking that is

Silly!

Jean

[RnMomof7]

Ok. Why don't you close up the NKJV for a moment an use some logic.

Lets say you admit you were wrong when you said a murder can not be the elect of God to start off with....The Bbile..the word of God says YOUR opinion is not GODS opinion. So why would I believe your faulty logic..so I will keep my bible open

Why would anyone behave ethically? Why would anyone go to church? Why wouldn't everyone simply behave in a depraved manner.

Why would someone that has repented of their sin and fallen on their face infront of God want to sin ?

Now ask yourself this. Why do mainline Protestants reject predestination? Answer: because without free will Christianity is useless.

I guess it depends whayt you mean by "Christianity " would you define what YOU mean by it?

[RnMomof7]

Thanks Good history lesson....a bit tilted to the Dutch...but that is fine with me:>)

[Jean Chauvin]

"Ok. Why don't you close up the NKJV for a moment an use some logic. "

What's with the 'NKJV' talk?

"Why would anyone behave ethically?"

Because they want to.

"Why would anyone go to church?"

Because they want to.

"Why wouldn't everyone simply behave in a depraved manner."

Because they don't want to act this way.

What you fail to understand that Predestination involves the regeneration of our hearts! Our desires have been altered. We no longer want to continue doing such things.

Now, I have a question for you. Let's consider your question. Why do not people who know they are saved (no matter what) murder, steal, commit adultry...

Let's assume for a minute that all christians are indeed saved 'no matter what'. Why does this not happen?

The sillyness of this argument is that it is nonsense. Christians ~go~ to church. Christians ~don't~ continue in their sinful ways. Your 'hypothetical' is nonsense because it doesn't remotely describe accurate events.

Now, if you could demonstrate that Christians do indeed continue in sin, you might even have a point.

Furthermore, if you could demonstrate that Christians who believe in predestination -Christians who believe that they are saved 'no matter what'- actually do continue in their sinful ways (or otherwise act as you've described), then you might have a point. That they don't act in such ways as you suggest makes your hypothetical question completely irrelevant!

Jean