MAN OF THE SHROUD

Various ^ | August 2002

[NYer]

The Shroud of Turin is a centuries old linen cloth that bears the image of a crucified man. A man that millions believe to be Jesus of Nazareth. Is it really the cloth that wrapped his crucified body, or is it simply a medieval forgery, a hoax perpetrated by some clever artist? Modern, twentieth century science has completed hundreds of thousands of hours of detailed study and intense research on the Shroud. It is, in fact, the single most studied artifact in human history, and we know more about it today than we ever have before. And yet, the controversy still rages.

Arguments against the Shroud's authenticity are prima facia, supported by carbon 14 dating and a prevailing view of the way things are in the world. On the other hand, the case for authenticity is a compelling preponderance of scientific and historic evidence. So daunting is the evidence that we can only wonder if, as  postmodernists suggest, "no such thing as objective truth exists, that historic reality is an inherently enigmatic and endlessly negotiable bundle of free-floating perceptions."1 The alternative is to consider, as C. S. Lewis contends: rare exceptions to nature are possible. 

On this hot and sultry day in August, I decided to post this thread for those who enjoy mystery, adventure and the thrill of discovery. There are many web sites devoted to this topic. I suggest you begin here:

SHROUD OF TURIN

[RnMomof7]

Colleen did you read the scripture on Mose's Pole?

All scripture is written to instruct us and convict us. That story is given to show us human nature ..

Do you ever see those guys selling their hankies so you can lay them on where you hurt to get your "miracle"

Trust me Colleen that is what will happen with the shroud..

People will travel to he healed because the shroud has power

That is NOT anti catholic..cause believe it or not I have a claim on that shroud too..MY SAVIOR left it behind (if it is His). It would NOT be a Catholic relic (Like some "old saints" bones) it belongs to the Christian Church

[Wrigley]

I guess it would be impossible for God to allow that His Son's death Shroud be preserved... and alarming for you that the Catholic Church has had possesion of the Shroud for centuries. Now I understand why you dismiss relics...

Hardly alarming at all. What I find alarming though is that you would need anything more than the Biblical account to prove that Jesus has indeed risen.

[american colleen]

But I don't. Did you read my posts? Please don't put words in mouth. That would be very unChristian of you.

[american colleen]

No, sorry, never saw "guys selling their hankies" or stuff like that.

I know human nature, too. From the Bible and from life, and from the way God made us - free will.

Tell me, would you believe in God if we did not have the Bible?

I'm just thinking that a lot of non-C's dismiss the Shroud as false without actually knowing anything about it except that it is held and has been held by the Catholic Church for centuries (which is all the evidence needed by them for the Shroud to be false).

[xzins]

Dr. Michael Tite ran a scam. The cloth samples tested differed in weight from the cloth samples cut from the Shroud. It was a clear case of substituting samples taken from another source, The Cope of St. Louis.

This is disappointing for a couple of reasons.

I remember when the Shroud was tested. I remember the build-up and all the speculation. I remember the church authorities being so concerned that someone would need to cut off a piece of the Shroud to perform their C-14 testing. I remember reading about the fire damage in the past. I remember reading about the repairs. This was all known stuff BEFORE the sample was taken.

What is disappointing? First, I'm disappointed that the church authorities didn't supervise, or if they did supervise, that they didn't say, "Hey, Dude, you're cutting out a swatch in a repaired portion of the cloth." I mean, they knew it then. Why didn't they say something?

So, now we hear that the guy they chose is a charlatan who had an agenda to disprove the authenticity of the relic. Please help me. Couldn't one of them have found someone reputable before letting that guy cut out that important piece of cloth? It's starting to sound like "dumb and dumber," if you ask me. But....nobody's asking me, so I'll just offer an unsolicited opinion.

It sounds like the blind leading the blind from the start of this operation to the completion.

They let a charlatan be in charge. Then they allowed the guy to cut a swatch out of a KNOWN repaired section of the cloth. Then they didn't immediately protest. I'm gonna go take rolaids, tums, and motrin all at once. I've got a headache and indigestion at the same time.

So what do we do?

Cut out another piece. Get a real unbiased source to test it. Cut it out of the right portion of the cloth. Use modern measuring techniques.

This is all too easy. But someone will say, "Oh, it's too precious to cut on again!" Sigh. It was precious the last time they let a swatch get cut out of the wrong section by a nut.

Let's do it right.

And, in the meantime, I sure hope people manage to become Christians without these results. I mean, what with all the salvific weight that theology and doctrine have placed on this cloth through the ages.

[RnMomof7]

Ohh man Colleen you need to watch TBN if you can take it..trust me there is special oils and hankies and amulets of all types ..this is not only an RC issue..this is a human nature issue

I do not know if the shroud is real. It could be ,I do not dismiss it out of hand..but my faith does not rest on it..I would go WOW but that would be about it:>))

Tell me, would you believe in God if we did not have the Bible?

Colleen how would you know who God is or even that He exists without it?

How would you know WHAT to believe? It was important to Jesus ..He quoted the Jewish cannon to instruct..

Without it I would be an athesist

[RnMomof7]

And, in the meantime, I sure hope people manage to become Christians without these results. I mean, what with all the salvific weight that theology and doctrine have placed on this cloth through the ages.

Without the Grace of God the shroud means nothing. If the word of God does not convert..some piece of cloth will not . Man can not UNDERSTAND (Romans 3:1)

[american colleen]

What is TBN? I don't think I get it in Massachusetts. But I do watch EWTN - no charlatans or anything on there! ;-)

Whose faith rests on the Shroud? No one has said that except you and Wrigley. It is a straw man that you've both set up and knocked down, gee, thanks a lot!

Colleen how would you know who God is or even that He exists without it?

How would you know WHAT to believe? It was important to Jesus ..He quoted the Jewish cannon to instruct..

Without it I would be an athesist

So your faith rests solely on the Bible. Catholics do not need only the Bible to have faith...Jesus did not leave a book. We have the Church that He left us. The Early Christians did not have a Bible. I guess it is amazing that they could sort through all the false letters purported to be Scripture - and still believe.

I see no difference in those that rest their faith on the Shroud (if there are any) and those that rest their faith solely on the Bible, which did not exist until almost 400 years after Christ.

[NYer]

but trust me people will flock expecting to see IT preform a miracle

No miracles have been associated with the Shroud. It stands in testimony of what it is ... the burial shroud of a man who was crucified 2000 years ago.

The shroud inspires a deeper and more profound devotion to our Savior, through its blood stains and image wounds that have been counted and numbered.

"All of the data gleaned from extensive study of the pathology evident on the shroud tells us this piece of linen was wrapped around the corpse of a man who was crucified and died while still nailed to a cross. We also know that the man's corpse lay inside the burial linen for no more than two or three days. Had he been there longer, decomposition stains would be present on the cloth, but the shroud contains no signs of bodily decomposition."

"Despite the desires of its many skeptics, the Shroud image will not fade from view. He continues to challenge and enlighten us, the man of the Shroud, to agitate us into reconsidering some of the most important questions humankind has ever faced."

[NYer]

Cut out another piece. Get a real unbiased source to test it. Cut it out of the right portion of the cloth. Use modern measuring techniques. Let's do it right.

That is precisely why the book we have been discussing was printed and released. It details the thousands of tests conducted on the shroud.

"Unquestionably, the Shroud of Turin's most extraordinary feature thus far disclosed is the three-dimensionality of its body image. This characteristic was revealed in 1976 when scientiest examind a photograph of the Shroud with a VP-8 Image Analyzer, a piece of space-age imaging equipment. Working on the theory that three-dimensional information might be encoded in the Shroud image, physicist John Jackson contacted Bill Mottern, image specialist at Sandia Laboratory, who had access to a VP-8 Image Analyzer. After using the machine to process a Shroud photo, both men were stunned when a correctly proportioned three-dimensional image of a man appeared on their computer screen."

Millions of dollars in equipment were brought in to examine the Shroud. This book details the nature, methods and scientists involved in testing the Shroud.

Remember, the author is a lawyer. He was a committed agnostic when he began writing the book; he is now a baptized christian.

[RnMomof7]

So your faith rests solely on the Bible. Catholics do not need only the Bible to have faith

Colleen THAT is a problem...that means your faith rises and falls on the words of men..men that can error ..men that can sin..men that lie and seek after fame ...men that can be deceived by Satan.Where does faith come from? Is it from your will ? That is not what the bible says

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. .

HOW do you KNOW what to believe?

See if you think about it without the Bible you could not claim (in error IMHO ) that Peter was the Pope

Nor could you claim the bread and wine are the body of Christ (in fact how would you even know about the Last supper?)

No Colleen you need the Bible..the problem is you have so many layers of man made doctrine layered on top of it you do not even realize it

Colleen ,the trick is not to believe ..even the heathans believe..the need is to believe correctly

Incorrect belief never saved anyone..

Colleen, go to a Bible search engine..go to the New Testament ..and punch in "it is written," or "as it is written " etc....and just see how often Jesus and the apostles quoted from the Jewish scriptires.Jesus believed it was needed , the apostles believed it was needed . You should too..

Colleen Popes die, doctrine changes..but the Word of God is constant..

Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

I leave you with a final warning about not taking the word of God seriously

Luk 9:26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and [in his] Father's, and of the holy angels.

BTW I spend alot of time trying to get folks to read the Bible.. I have little interest in "converting" anyone , my goal in life is to get people to read Gods word..try it you will like it:>)

[RnMomof7]

I hope you are right..but being a student of human nature tells me that the tour bus and the promise of miracles are not far behind

[american colleen]

Well, I guess I am like the earliest Christians, who did not rest their belief in the Risen Christ in a book that did not exist - the New Testament.

BTW, you are quite wrong in saying "Nor could you claim the bread and wine are the body of Christ (in fact how would you even know about the Last supper?)" - those Truths were taught to men and handed down and are written about by disciples of the apostles in writings other than the Bible.

No, I could be deaf, dumb and blind or have no recourse to the Bible and as a Catholic (and some people in poor countries still don't have Bibles, as you know) still have the Church He left us. He didn't say He'd leave us a Bible, He gave the Keys to Peter and told him to go out and preach the Word of God.

Can you show me where Doctrine/Belief has changed in the Catholic Church?

Thanks for the final word on taking His Word seriously, whatever have I said that would lead you to believe I do not take His Word seriously? I'm an orthodox Catholic, of course I take everything He said seriously.

[RnMomof7]

Can you show me where Doctrine/Belief has changed in the Catholic Church?

Is the church still selling indulgences for cash ? That WAS a doctrinal position men could be purchased out of Purgatory and in fact could prepay on their future sin

From an international web site http://www.icej.org/pages/home/statements/papal.html

We recognize that Pope John Paul II has done more to promote reconciliation with the Jewish faith than perhaps all previous popes combined, as his personal witness of the Holocaust kindled a life-long, genuine attachment to the Jews. He was the first pope to declare anti-Semitism a sin against God; the first to visit a synagogue; the first to commemorate the Holocaust inside the Vatican; the first to affirm the right of Jews to return to their ancient homeland; and the first to confirm the enduring nature of God's covenants with the Jews. And it was under his leadership that the Vatican recognized the state of Israel - though not Jerusalem as its capital.

We note these dramatic and overdue changes in Catholic doctrine and attitude towards the "elder brothers" of the Christian faith are reflective of similar positive developments that have occurred among many other Christians and denominations in recent centuries.

I list the progression of the practices of the Catholic Church that show that what is now was not always in fact I doubt if Peter ( or as OP suggested James as the real 1st Pope.. I mentioned ya I flagged ya OP) would recognize the church or its beliefs

Prayers for the dead were introduced in 310
The lighting of candles in 320
The worship of saints about 375
The mass was adopted in 394
The worship of Mary began to develop about 432
Priests began to assume distinctive robes in 500
The doctrine of purgatory was introduced in 593
Worship in Latin (since repealed) was mandated in 600
Claims to Papal Supremacy took firm foot in 606
Feasts in honor of the Virgin Mary began in 650
The custom of kissing the Pope's foot was introduced in 709
The worship of images and relics was authorized in 788
The invention of holy water was about 850
The canonization of saints was formalized in 993
Feasts for the dead were introduced in 1003
The celibacy of the priesthood was declared in 1074
The dogma of Papal infallibility was announced in 1076
Prayer beads were introduced in 1090
The doctrine that there are seven sacraments was introduced in 1140
The sale of indulgences began in 1190
The wafer was substituted for the loaf in 1200
The dogma of transubstantiation was adopted in 1215
Confession was instituted in 1215
The adoration of the Wafer began in 1220
The Ave Maria was introduced in 1316
The cup was taken from the laity in 1415
Purgatory was officially decreed in 1439
Roman tradition was placed on the same level as Scripture in 1546
The Apocrypha was received into the Canon in 1546
The immaculate conception of the Virgin Mary was announced in 1854
The doctrine of the temporal power of the Pope proclaimed in 1864
The personal corporeal presence of the Virgin in heaven in 1950

Lots of non scriptual changes over the years AC..

[american colleen]

From an international web site

I've seen this posted on "TNS" before, thanks. As you know, most, if not all of the "charges" made here are false.

As for indulgences, I'll answer that tomorrow as I am going to bed now before my husband gets there before me!

[fortheDeclaration]

Even if it were the 'shroud' what difference what that make to anything?

[xzins]

All well and good, but it doesn't answer the question. Cut out another piece, C-14 test, get an age, and then publish results.

[RnMomof7]

Hope you slept well girl

[Catholicguy]

Acts 19,12

Acts 5, 15,16

I guess if God is ok with His Graces flowing through THOSE relics, we can conclude He is allright with the Shroud Of Turin despite your

[Catholicguy]

Your antiCatholicism is fueled by falsehoods,fables and fatuous fabrications. I knew you'd turn this thread into one of your antiCatholic rants. You just are going to use this particular thread as a launching pad.

Shroud of Turin? Nope, Mary worship, saint worship blah blah blah...back to your calvinists threads where your presence is welcomed