It Came From The Roman Church: Catholic horror stories told by Evangelicals & how to respond

This Rock/ Catholic Answers via Petersnet ^ | David Mills

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

2)All chemical methods are abortifacient at least part of the time. This violates "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Granted. Dobson is a blood-stained hypocrite for not teaching this obvious fact to Protestants.

In NFP the couple does not have sex then "throw up" the natural consequences, like bulimia. They simply do not enage in the activity at certain times, like dieting. There is a fundamental difference between dieting and bulimia. There is also a fundamental difference between NFP and contraception.

Not Granted. There are at least two obvious arguments against this, but I am going to ask you to bookmark this particular point for later -- I elect not to offer my critiques at this time.

[Starwind]

Thank you...I must have been using the search engine incorrectly earlier. The one on the vatican main page worked to find the same two cites you provided.

The 'Familiaris consortio' was well hidden.

So, is this what you do to find these documents? Plug the Latin title into the search engine and then browse the english hits until you find what 'looks right'?

[Polycarp]

The teaching of the Church Fathers of the First Century (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) on Absolute Predestination is every bit as explicit as the teachings of later Church Fathers on the immorality of abortifacient contraception.

We'll see...or is it maybe a matter not of the plain sense of scripture so much as personal interpretations of opposing scriptural proof texts regarding Absolute Predestination, as you call it? We'll see.

[Polycarp]

In short, he's an Apostate against the First Century Magisterial doctrine of Absolute Predestination

We'll see...

[voa-davidk]

"In latter times some shall depart from the faith , giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons , speaking lies in hypocrisy , forbidding marriage aand abstaining from meats which God gave to be giveen wwith thaaankss to them that believe . " - from the New Testament ,1 Timothy 4:1-5 7/31/02

[Starwind]

1)All Barrier methods are condemned by the Onan incident in Genesis 38 (in which Onan was killed by God for coitus interuptus), according to every single Christian theologian who ever commented on it prior to the year 1930.

Background on this interpretation will be in your homepage?

NFP means ?

[voa-davidk]

" In latter times some shall depart from the faith , giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons , speaking lies in hypocrisy , forbidding marriage and commanding abstaining from meats which God gave to be given with thanks to them thaat believe . " - from the New Testament ,1 Timothy 4:1-5

[Evangelium Vitae]

So, is this what you do to find these documents? Plug the Latin title into the search engine and then browse the english hits until you find what 'looks right'?

For someone who isn't familiar with Papal writings and where to find them, that method should do fine. Most of the important stuff from the past 100+ years are on the Net, so Google should have no problem finding them.

[voa-davidk]

" In latter times some shall depart from the faith , giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons , speaking lies in hypocrisy , forbidding marriage and commanding abstaining from meats which God gave to be given with thanks to them that believe ." - from the New Tewstament, 1 Timothy 4:1-5

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

OP, give me the scriptures, then we'll swap the countering scriptural proof texts, then we'll swap early church fathers proof texts, etc., OK? Then we'll see whether all Christian Authority once taught that Absolute Predestination was the Faith of the Church, OK?

No dice.

I would no more permit you to claim as "authorities" any so-called "later church fathers" who argued against the First Century Magisterium (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) on the subject of Absolute Predestination then I would permit Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons to claim as "authorities" those Arians who argued against the First Century Magisterium (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) on the subject of Trinitarianism.

• Athanasius did not "introduce the doctrine" of Trinitarianism; he merely defended the teaching of the First Century Magisterium (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) on Trinitarianism. I will admit NO later-century anti-Trinitarian Apostates who sought to overthrow the First Century Magisterium as being any kind of "authority".
• Augustine did not "introduce the doctrine" of Predestinarianism; he merely defended the teaching of the First Century Magisterium (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) on Predestinarianism. I will admit NO later-century anti-Predestinarian Apostates who sought to overthrow the First Century Magisterium as being any kind of "authority".

The First Century Magisterium (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) is explicit, defined, and infallible on the subjects of Trinitarianism and Predestinarianism. ANY later-century deviation from the infallible magisterium of the First Century Fathers on these subjects will not be treated as an "authority".

The First Century Magisterium is explicit, defined, and infallible. It is therefore the unquestionable Rule of Faith for all later-century Christians. Any "fathers" who deviated therefrom are, therefore, Apostates and not Authorities.

If we can agree on that, we can proceed.

[Polycarp]

Background on this interpretation will be in your homepage?

Yes, I just got it up. Look approximately halfway down my profile page for the protestant reformers and their interpretations of Genesis 38. Also you will find there a timeline of Christian quotes regarding contraception from the times of the apostles till present.

NFP means ?

Sorry...Natural Family Planning. My wife and I are instructors. I'm also a physician and a published Catholic writer on culture of life issues such as these, so I know a little more on this than some, but not as much as many...

[voa-davidk]

" In latter times some shall depart from the faith , giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons , speaking lies in hypocrisy , forbidding marriage and commanding abstaining from meats which God gave to be given with thanks to them that believe ." - from the New Testament , 1 timothy 4:1-5

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

We'll see...or is it maybe a matter not of the plain sense of scripture so much as personal interpretations of opposing scriptural proof texts regarding Absolute Predestination, as you call it? We'll see.

Not Granted. I call this a "weasel argument" just like those Modernists who try to weasel out of the Magisterial teaching on contraception.

The First Century Magisterium (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) on Absolute Predestination is every but as explicit, defined, and infallible as ANY magisterial teaching thereafter, including the magisterial teaching on contraception.

Any deviation therefrom is, ergo, absolute Apostacy.

Ball is in your court.

[Polycarp]

The accepted method of posting a comment to multiple posters on a thread is to post it to all of them at once. Otherwise you will be seen as purposely disrupting a thread or spamming a thread.

Thank you for that quote. All three times. God Bless you.

[voa-davidk]

"In latter times some shall depart from the faith , giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons , speaking lies in hypoccrisy , forbidding marriage and commanding abstaining from meats which God gave to be given with thanks to them that believe . " - from the New Testament , 1 Timothy 4:1-5

[Starwind]

Found it. Thanks. Really cute picture of you and your family...you're break'n my heart :)

[Polycarp]

I will have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Matchett-PI or the_doc.

Ball is no longer in play.

Sorry.

[Polycarp]

Knock it off or expect your posts to get pulled. Once is enough, post it to all your intended recipients, and move on.

[Polycarp]

Ball is in your court.

I will be happy to continue this debate with you personally via FReepmail. I only debate on this publicly forum with men of good will.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I will have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Matchett-PI or the_doc. Ball is no longer in play. Sorry.

I flagged them as observers only. Please feel free to ignore the peanut gallery; I will take no offence.

Ball is in play.

The First Century Magisterium (Jesus, James, John, Peter, and Paul) on Absolute Predestination is every but as explicit, defined, and infallible as ANY magisterial teaching thereafter, including the magisterial teaching on contraception.

Any deviation therefrom is, ergo, absolute Apostacy.