"To my face"?
I would if I could see it.
Posted on 07/26/2002 7:24:27 PM PDT by narses
According to a new Vatican document, recently released in English, Jews should continue to anticipate the coming of Messiah.
The Pontifical Biblical Commission released the English version of "The Jewish People and their Sacred Scriptures in the Christian Bible" in May. Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger signed the work.
"The Jewish Messianic wait is not in vain," the statement says. "It can become for us Christians a strong stimulus to maintain alive the eschatological dimension of our faith. We, like them, live in expectation. The difference is in the fact that for us, he who will come will have the traits of that Jesus who has already come and is already active and present among us."
The document is the latest of several that some believe suggest the church is softening its stance toward Jews and their salvation. For example, several scholars said Dominus Iesus, a 2000 document that reaffirms that salvation comes through Christ and the church, does not apply to Jews the way it does to members of other non-Christian religions.
Two Covenants? Darrell Bock, professor of New Testament Studies at Dallas Theological Seminary, noted that the new statement seems to imply belief in a two-covenant view of salvation. "This would undercut evangelism to Jews and does not make sense of the efforts of the earliest church to reach out to Jews as seen in the New Testament," Bock told Christianity Today. "On the key question of whether Judaism can save, the document is very unclear."
John Pawlikowski, director of the Catholic-Jewish Studies program at the University of Chicago, said the statement raises questions about the way the church understands Jews and salvation. "It demands some kind of further reflection on the significance of the universality of Christ's redemptive action," he said. "To what extent, then, does their salvation depend primarily on their own covenant rather than, say, on the universal work of Christ?"
The statement is "like the camel's nose of universalism in the tent of the Catholic Church," said David Brickner, executive director of Jews for Jesus. "Jesus is the Messiah of the Jews, or he's no one's Messiah.
"I think it's important for us as evangelicals to recognize that the Catholic Church has long given up the notion of a forthright evangelistic outreach to the Jewish people," Brickner said. "The evangelical church should see this as a cautionary tale. The uniqueness of Christ is what's at stake."
Relations with Jews Yechiel Eckstein, founder of the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, said the statement could help Christians respond to Jews in a way that is respectful, but does not compromise Christian beliefs.
Eugene Fisher, associate director for Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs for the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, said the document may help Jews and Christians pursue a more intense level of interfaith dialogue using their shared Scriptures.
"It provides a solid basis of understanding for a local congregation to speak to a local synagogue—not only on social issues that we can get together on, but precisely on 'Let's talk about how we understand, say, the Book of Genesis,' " he said.
Leon Klenicki, a past president of the Anti-Defamation League, said the statement is good for Catholic-Jewish relations. But, he said, the document only describes Jewish beliefs and does not grant them theological validity.
Brickner cautions that interfaith dialogue, though valuable, should not replace evangelism. "This document demonstrates that those who have in one sense given up evangelism and replaced it with dialogue ultimately end up compromising the essence of the gospel itself."
Despite questions, many religious leaders say the statement is a valuable step forward. Mary Boys, professor of practical theology at Union Theological Seminary, said the study's emphasis on reading the Scriptures in their original context is helpful in correcting "the disparagement of Judaism that has been like a virus in Christian theology."
Marvin Wilson, author of Our Father Abraham: Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith, agrees. "For nearly 2,000 years, the Christians took the Jewish Scriptures and proceeded to essentially disregard Jewish scholarship and Jewish interpretation."
Wilson, professor of biblical and theological studies at Gordon College in Wenham, Massachusetts, says evangelicals need to hear the Jewish Scriptures "as a word meant for Israel, not just the word that gets validated for us because we can spiritualize it or Christolocize it, validating it by some kind of New Testament connection."
I believe that Mary appeared to the three children, but what she said versus what may have come from the mind and imagination of Lucia is something we will never know.
btw: Where were you, sitetest, when your "friend" was trying to establish a link (guilt by association) between Bishop Sheen and an homosexual? I guess for a "friend" of yours, that can "charitably" be overlooked. I believe that was the first time I correctly labeled him "half wit."
You said,
"You along with your 'friend' (perhaps there’s a bond I’m not aware of) expressed the belief that there were few souls in hell."
You later quote me,
"I believe that souls could be in Hell." (And you fail to provide the context, but that's okay - I'm sure that you weren't acting uncharitably, there.)
Your statement isn't supported by what I actually wrote.
You falsified what I said.
But I forgive you.
sitetest
Where's your proof?
Let's see your mythical studies?
Let's have the links!
You've got NOTHING, sitetest, but that's ok. You've got your little "friend.";-);-);-)
"btw: Where were you, sitetest, when your 'friend' was trying to establish a link (guilt by association) between Bishop Sheen and an homosexual? I guess for a 'friend' of yours, that can 'charitably' be overlooked. I believe that was the first time I correctly labeled him 'half wit.'"
I didn't see that particular thread.
I did see him mention something similar on another thread. I asked him to consider that it was a rumor, and that it was wrong to spread it. He felt that he wasn't incorrect. I pressed him a little more. He disagreed with me.
He is my friend, but I don't agree with everything he says. If I think he has acted wrongly, I tell him.
sitetest
BTW, my comments about Sheen were based on anecdotes from another poster. I didn't see her repudiation of those until much later. I hereby retract what I said about Bishop Sheen and apologize for my remarks.
You know, of course, that Fatima is not a matter of Faith. I believe the Blessed Mother appeared there; you want to nail me to the exact wording that Sister Lucia related.
The words of a teenage girl shouldn't be your only basis for proving that souls are in hell.
Since you've shown yourself incapable of gentlemanly conversation, why on earth do you think I wish to discuss things further with you?
Even if I introduced study after study, and pointed out that I did my graduate work, in part, on the methodology of social science surveys (I did), I doubt it would make a dent in you. Even if I pointed out to you the improper assumptions in the studies you cite, and the mistakes you've made in interpreting them, you can't admit even when you falsify simple things, why should I expect that you would acknowledge, or perhaps, even understand something more complicated?
So, why would I bother? To satisfy YOU?
Nah...
;-)
sitetest
And, so do I. You don't like my method, I think yours is useless. Such is life.
"And, so do I. You don't like my method, I think yours is useless. Such is life."
That's okay. I think yours is objectively gravely immoral.
To each his own!
;-)
sitetest
I’ll tell you why you won’t. You haven’t got the goods, sitetest. You’re full of hot air (like your “friend”) and you’ve got NO proof to support your contentions regarding belief in the Real Presence. It’s laughable. I post study after study, and you tell me to look for the rebuttal to my own posts. Give it a rest.
p.s. Tell your little “friend” that I am honoring his request of not posting to him and I would prefer that he would not post to me either. Thanks. ;-);-);-)
Who cares? Nobody goes to hell anyway. ;-)
"I’ll tell you why you won’t. You haven’t got the goods, sitetest. You’re full of hot air (like your “friend”) and you’ve got NO proof to support your contentions regarding belief in the Real Presence. It’s laughable. I post study after study, and you tell me to look for the rebuttal to my own posts. Give it a rest."
Think what you wish. You post study after study, and really don't understand at all what any of them mean. The "rebuttal" to your posts is contained within your posts.
By the way, do you have any more re-runs? Hope they're better than the last one. Otherwise, I'll just go watch "Law and Order". It's a re-run, too, but it's better written.
;-)
"p.s. Tell your little 'friend' that I am honoring his request of not posting to him and I would prefer that he would not post to me either."
Tell him yourself.
";-);-);-)"
Are you trying to make up with me, now? Getting fresh?
Sorry, you're not my type.
;-)
sitetest
Liberal dissenting half wit?
;-)
"'I think yours is objectively gravely immoral.'
"Who cares? Nobody goes to hell anyway. ;-)"
LOL. That's a good one.
You'll note that I DID phrase what I said to allow that perhaps you aren't morally culpable for your sin.
Maybe you WON'T go to Hell for your false statements against other posters!
That would please me immensely.
;-)
sitetest
"'Sorry, you're not my type.'
"Liberal dissenting half wit?
";-) "
That would be a case of opposites attracting.
:-o
sitetest
Then leave me out of your diatribes.
You practice the polemics of a seventh grade girl: "tell your friend".
You want to attack me, do it like a man.
To my face.
"To my face"?
I would if I could see it.
You gonna short-sheet my bed tonight?
People who get into the gutter are usually right at home there.
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