When The Pope's Friends Walk Away

TCRnews.com ^ | 7-25-2002 | Stephen Hand

[Notwithstanding]

A number of disturbing reports are heard lately that some of the Holy Father's former friends are in danger of collapsing in the storms; collapsing into the chaos of selective obedience, into the dangers of private judgment's non sequiturs. Michael Rose is trucking with pope-bashers and marketing his books through them, Robert Sungenis is rashly attacking the Pope on Assisi, Patrick Madrid is selling his books at a notorious pope-trashing website and giving "exclusive" excerpts to that site which also peddles the works of the worst schismatics who publicly call for an official "suspension of obedience" to the "Popes of Vatican II," and who gleefully and absurdly predict that JPII will be deposed for heresies. A group called "Roman Catholic Faithful" is openly publishing the works of these men too. Gerry Matatics, of course, has long shown aggressive solidarity with all these.

At first one hopes there is a misunderstanding. Maybe it's just the fact that a certain small percentage of converts or reverts will inevitably go off the rails for a time; maybe they have not fully overcome their fundamentalist spirit and suspicions toward "Rome," or their instinctive splitting into "remnants," and their personalistic "evangelism" wherein if they feel they are "called" to go on the circuit preaching tour, then they infer they must be "sent" by God, though this is contrary to all Catholic teaching, obedience and humility.

Maybe, though---which God forbid---it is a less innocent motive: simply the desire for money. What many, if not most, of these have in common is something to sell. Books, tapes, magazines, whatever...And maybe they haven't considered how immoral it is from a Catholic point of view to put marketing and personal security above the Truth. Michael Davies has long allowed the most virulent Pope-attackers to publish and sell his books and has led the way in all this. Cottage industries need "markets". Ask Fr. Gruner.

Better to sell no books, or just one book, with the Pope, than a million apart from him. Better to have Our Lord's warning about millstones around ones neck and judgment than to scandalize Christ's innocent ones by leading them into wolves dens to sell ones books or magazines.

Whatever the case, some of these cannot easily plead ignorance, even if others are merely confused. Most know what is what where websites and infamous Integrists are concerned. The goal of the older, more cynical Integrists has long been to pretend that conservatives and integrists are doing the same thing, which is absurd.

It only takes a little poison...

Whatever the case, it appears that some are showing signs of whithering on the Vine. They seem to be moving from complete loyalty to the Holy Father and the teaching Church to a place of shadows where fidelity mixes with persecution.

Invariably, when one points this out and shouts a warning, the more experienced and cynical in the ways of schism and anti-papal doctrinal collapse encourage their neophytes to respond with absurd charges of ultramontanism or to cynically shout down, ad hominem, the ones who try to warn them, as if no dogmatic certainties were at stake: "Who made YOU the measure of the Catholic Faith! Canon law allows criticism!"

Yes, but not this kind of criticism which moves qualitatively from inner personal concern or "dissent" to outright public attack, which even has the temerity to charge the Popes with heresies or rupture with Tradition which is the second prong of revelation itself.

The Holy Father and living magisterium, the teaching Church, is the measure of the Faith, not Catholic persons or groups.

We are living in sad times. When, earlier, I saw my old friends moving toward the cliffs of schism, well beyond constructive criticism, when they refused to hear the warnings, I knew it was time to bail. One's soul was at stake. I saw the logical trajectory of private judgment toward which Integrist presuppositions were leading .

The Holy Father is being persecuted from all sides today in something like apocalyptic storms. And now, some of his former friends are showing signs of deserting that cross and blaming him for the consequences of not heeding his own teachings-----and they do not see how ironic and absurd and tragic that is.

Real traditionalists---such as we are proud to be--- have their wheels on the dogmatic rails. Ask any Neo-modernist and he'll tell you where TCR is on the theological spectrum and they will not hesitate to say we are traditionalists, but with our wheels on the tracks, with Peter, who, together with his bishops, alone has the right to mediate, interpret, and develop Catholic Tradition.

Sometimes a warning must be sounded.

[narses]

I would love to see documentation of the infiltration of the seminaries by communists.

[Catholicguy]

No one denies there were creeps in the Church in the old days. They were the exception. We're talking subculture here. Open dissent regarding Church teachings on morality. Dissent was never tolerated before Vatican II. Never.

As they said in Monty Python's "Holy Grail," "pull the other one."

Catholic Ecclesiastical history is replete with stories that render your pronuoncement nugatory. In about 1060, St Peter Damian wrote his famous treatise againsthomosexuality so abundant were they an ddissent abounded in various ages....read some history of Bishops selling Jurisdiction, married priests with kids skuolking about..come on..you live in a dream world

[Catholicguy]

Where is the UNITY in worship over the past 40 years: English Masses, Spanish Masses, Hearing Impaired Masses, Gay Pride Masses, Charismatic Masses, Children's Masses, Folk Masses, Easter Bunny Masses,.................and the only Mass which is not welcome........ THE MASS OF ALL TIME

The Mass has not changed since Holy Thursday. The Mass is the action of Jesus offering Himself as a Sacrifice of propitiation to God for our benefit through the Priesthood He established. The Liturgy has changed innumerable times

[Catholicguy]

Not recognize that it is a sacrifice and not a meal? I don't think so. I've been to the Novus Ordo. It's almost identical to the Lutheran worship

Balderdash. Name a protestant church that uses our Eucharistic prayers.

FYI, the REAL, OLD Roman Rite was SIMPLE. They used a TABLE..read some history please as your mistakes are prolific. The VAST majority of what you consider ROMAN didnt even initiate there

[Catholicguy]

You are confusing doctrine with discipline. Nope. Never have, never will, Never did with that query. Not long ago I saw you repeatedly defend the discipline of celibacy as if it were Church doctrine. I freq. reference "The Apostolic Origins of Priestly Celibacy" by Fr Cochini. I have never suggested it was doctrine. That is your problem and your problems in interpretation are not my responsibility Please go learn the difference before you post further insults to those who have displayed that they at least grasp this foundational difference. Please cite where I came even close to doing what you falsely accuse me of doing. If you can source your false charge and prove it accurate, I'll buy you a Catholic Dictionary so you can learn the difference. To engage in dispassioned critique and debate of the form of the liturgy is not to engage in deciding for ourselves what Doctrines we can accept. You are a pyromaniac in a field of straw men

You are making the same fatal error as your Mr Hand, proof of the poor fruits of his purposeful blurring of distinctions between dissent on papal authority or the validity and licitness of the mass and the completely legitimate discussion of the prudence of the disciplinary changes in the liturgy. Your inane charges are unsubstantiated and incapable of being proven. Go ahead..I can wait...prove them to be true You are proving my thesis here with these posts of yours. You don't realise you are making an ass of yourself. Try reading more carefuly next time

[Catholicguy]

The Church tells us that to be Catholic, we need to be in UNITY inWorship

That must be big news to the many other valid liturgical rites besides the modern "Latin" rite.

[Catholicguy]

That must be big news to the many other valid liturgical rites besides the modern "Latin" rite.

Poly, you KNOW I love to argue, so, could you at least arrive on the rhetorical field of battle with at least ONE weapon? :)

[Catholicguy]

First you tell me I am not a Catholic Just trying to be helpful and now you say, "Seriously, I think you ought to reconsider your presence as a Freeper person". very solicitous, I thought Your chutpah (chutzpah) is amazing. I have tried responding to you with manners and compassion. Your last post is beyond me. Too bad. It was well written and made some excellent points If you attack me, I will respond. You attack The Magisterium you are in my bailiwick.Can't handle the battle, clam-up and STOP attacking The Magisterium In the begining I responded to refute your dishonest attacks. My DEFENSE of the Magisterium was proved by my sourcing. Sitetest and Patent also pinned you on your errors. Deal with it like a man Then to ask you to stop. If you mean your presence on my 'ping' list, that was a gift from Maryz. I ping articles I think might be interesting to those on that list. I will happily remove you if that irritates you. It CERTAINLY is not meant as an invitation to attack me. You are the one that CONTINUALLY posts personally to me. SEE THE "TO" you keep using my name in? Good grief. I have told you who I am. I have told you how I defend the Faith. You know how I use rhetoric. You HAVE to begin to take responsibility for your own actions and stop acting like a juvenile. You CONTINUE to post to me personally, I WILL respond and I will not have one like you, one who militates AGAINST The Magisterium cow me into changing how I defend the faith.

[Catholicguy]

To each his own. I don't expect Hand to file a lengthy brief footnoted with references in an OPINION piece. I think it a good piece and OPINION pieces OUGHT to generate commentary. He succeeded. Look at the length of this thread

[Catholicguy]

This Pope is treading on dangerous ground.

Certainly he is treading on seldom trod upon ground. It is ineluctable he will be called "Great" and SSPX pipsqueaks who criticise and attack him will never be remembered

[narses]

You have shown no manners in your posts to me, you have been dishonest and I will ask that you stop attacking me, again. It is getting old and tiresome. As far as your defense of our faith, I applaud your motives, but your dishonest actions belie your stated intentions. Good cannot come from evil and your actions in dishonestly attacking me after I've asked you to stop fit that bill. Remove the beam from your own eye before you worry about the mote in mine.

[Catholicguy]

This is my final post for a while

Take some time to read some Liturgical History. I suggest "The Mass of the Roman Rite" a two volume history by FR Joseph Jungmann. It is easy to read and is INCREDIBLY well sourced. You NEED to read some real history because you continually made easily-correctable errors re "The Mass of all times"

[Land of the Irish]

The Mass has not changed since Holy Thursday. The Mass is the action of Jesus offering Himself as a Sacrifice of propitiation to God for our benefit through the Priesthood He established.

Are you saying all Masses, regardless of form and content, are equally pleasing to God? If so, why can I not assist at a SSPX Mass?

[Catholicguy]

Are you saying all Masses, regardless of form and content, are equally pleasing to God? If so, why can I not assist at a SSPX Mass?

You can do anything you desire. THAT is what maintaing UNITY is all about. You have the authority to follow your own Will in whatever you desire. Go to an SSPX Mass or an SSPV Mass (do we have an SSP2.5 yet?). Nothing matters, baby. Do your own thing. That is the essence of Unity

[Land of the Irish]

Sorry, baby, I'm not interested in Unity with the likes of Law, Mahoney, ..., Weakland, ....Cawcutt...

You have the authority to follow your own Will in whatever you desire.

Are you quoting the Pope from one of the Assisi meetings?

[Catholicguy]

You have shown no manners in your posts to me You sound awfully judgemental, you have been dishonest I have been honest and open with you. I have not gone behind your back. I CONTINUALLY tell you that if you post to me personally I will respond and I will ask that you stop attacking me,again I am not attacking you and I think everyone on this thread can see you are the one that continually posts to me personally, and, I would be surprised if I were the only one who didn't think that perhaps one reason, unacknowledged perhaps, is that your continued posting to me personally might draw a response that would cause me to be banned; although, of course, that is not what I am charging you with doing. . It is getting old and tiresome. and yet YOU keep posting personally to me. When will you begin to take responsibility for your actions? As far as your defense of our faith, I applaud your motives, but your dishonest actions Sorry, Ace. Repitition of error does not change a false charge into a truismm belie your stated intentions. Good cannot come from evil I am glad that wasn't a personal attack :) and your actions in dishonestly attacking me I am not attacking you. I am defending myself. I am a victim :) after I've asked you to stop You CONTINUALLY personally post to me. Odd fit that bill. Remove the beam from your own eye before you worry about the mote in mine. Back at ya, Ace. Now, if you don't desire that this continue STOP POSTING TO ME PERSONALLY..sheesh :)

[Catholicguy]

Even as I sent that, I knew it was a mistake. Perhaps you can't stop yourself from contacting me. That is understandable :) You should see me in person :)

So, I propose to help you break the attachment. I will not respond to your continuing personal posts to me. You seem incapable of taking responsibility for your own actions in this area so I will take control. I will not respond to your personal posts to me no matter how many times you send them

[narses]

Thank you. Perhaps you could also refrain from attacking me.

[Mike Fieschko]

O.k. Bud, ultima ratio, shall I go on..they are all about you on many threads

If I'm not mistaken, the very first post ever by freeper ultima ratio was #176 today in this thread, at 5:41 am Friday. Then ultima ratio's second post as a freeper, at 8:06 am. In yours of 8:32 am, after two posts, you're already accusing ultima ratio of ... what?

From ultima ratio's home page: signed up 2002-07-25

[Mike Fieschko]

You type: I look forward to the time when you ask someone to "withdraw" their attacks against The Magisterium. I can send you a list of names.

I typed:

Point them out to me on freerepublic.com.

You misunderstood me. Point out to me the attacks of the Magisterium. I'm interested when folks use words such as 'quisling'. I forget what I asked you to withdraw in the other thread (the one where freeper theotokos got banned), which thread I can't find now.