When The Pope's Friends Walk Away

TCRnews.com ^ | 7-25-2002 | Stephen Hand

[Saundra Duffy]

We become no better than the Protestants,

Them's fightin' words, pal.

[Saundra Duffy]

I think that homosexual priests should be removed from the priesthood, or placed in a non-parish, non-public position (like a monestary) to repent and seek forgiveness for their sins

No . . . I better not say it.

[Vermont Lt]

We become no better than the Protestants.....

Funny, the Protestants I grew up with never felt we were better than anyone else. Has the bar now been raised, or is it lowered?

[Saundra Duffy]

Why don't you just do yourself a favor and avoid Catholic themed threads?

You'd love that, wouldn't you? But then what's the point? You'd have one love-fest, pat-yourselves-on-the-back post after another. How boring! You must not be up to the task of defending your faith, pal.

[Polycarp]

Real traditionalists---such as we are proud to be---

Here's my parable for the Steve Hand's out there:

Imagine you are seated on a sailing ship, staring upwards at the main mast high above you. The ship rocks to and fro on turbulent seas.

A crewman on the crow's seat at the top of the mast casts a rope to one who has fallen overboard on the right side.

Wisely, the overboard sailor, seeing his peril, grasps the line and pulls himself up.

As he does so, he praises God for his salvation and humbly draws towards the deck.

But as he reaches the deck, seeing the joy of being aboard ship and the peril of his comrades still floating about in the water off the right side of the boat, he decides he can do more good for his brothers sinking into the deep waters if he climbs just a little higher towards the crow's nest, to help direct the sailor there in his aid to those overboard.

As he rises higher, the ship lists in the storm, and not yet being anchored on deck, he swings wildly on the rope, yet still attached to the crow's nest.

From our position seated on deck, we see a man saved from the waters on our right, swung high on the rope offered for his salvation, but...

as the ship lists left, the man on the rope swings wildly left.

But looking from his vantage point swingly wildly from his rope, and with the eyes of pride that comes from his superior viewpoint, and having had the experience of once being in the water on the right, he now judges those seated on deck to be listed to the right, when in actuality it is only on his rope that he is swingly rapidly left.

Eventually in his pride, he may think he no longer needs the rope, and can just let go and drop onto deck.

In reality, his trajectory has him overshooting the left most part of the ship's deck by a long shot, and more than likely our sailor will find himself in the waters on the left of the ship, still cursing those on deck for having listed so far to the right.

Interestingly, while those on deck may be squabbling over the proper placements of the riggings and the proper way to save those falling overboard to left and to right, and the proper course to sail through the turbulent seas,they still and always were sitting squarely on the middle of the deck, contantly being accused by those wet ones with the changing perspectives on the ropes of listing too far left or right themselves.

Please be patient or forgiving if those of us sitting squarely on the middle of the deck smirk a bit at our critics careening wildly overhead.

Dr. Kopp

[Polycarp]

How dare you insult my Lord and Savior like that!!!!!!!

I like your work and most of your posts, Saundra, but those who live in Mormon glass houses should not cast such big stones.

According to Mormon theology, Jesus is hardly a Lord or Savior compared to Christian theology.

I make it a point to never criticize mormon beliefs, but neither will I tolerate such criticism as yours when the log in your own eye is quite large.

[marshmallow]

Neither St. Paul nor St. Catherine of Siena limited themselves to prayers when, in their view, the Pope was doing the wrong thing. I see no reason why their example should be ignored or disparaged, notwithstanding the fact that it may not always be productive or possible to emulate it.

If you wish to follow the example of St. Paul and St. Catherine of Siena, follow it in toto. Both were deeply steeped in penitential suffering and mysticism, which in turn led to a profound humility. Their mission was not only to lend advice, but also to share in his suffering and the suffering of Jesus.

Furthermore, these are two holy individuals in the 2,000 year history of Christianity. This tells us that God does not send papal rebukers as a matter of course, in contrast to the cacophany of individuals offering His Holiness advice today. For my part, I have no indication that the thoughts which echo around my cranium are in any way divinely inspired. A cursory glance at my own muddled past, convinces me that a St. Paul or St. Catherine I'm not and that I have no current mission to lend advice to the Pope.

Those who wish to do so, should carry his cross also, as both St. Paul and St. Catherine did.

[Siobhan]

My pleasure to do so -- in honour of St. Thomas More

[Siobhan]

Thank you for saying so well what I have been trying to articulate for weeks. God bless you, Campion.

[patent]

Those with misgivings about the various actions of the Pope should leave these in the hands of God during prayer, for that is all the Holy Father truly needs from us. Our prayers.

Neither St. Paul nor St. Catherine of Siena limited themselves to prayers when, in their view, the Pope was doing the wrong thing. I see no reason why their example should be ignored or disparaged, notwithstanding the fact that it may not always be productive or possible to emulate it.

If we are going to emulate them, we should consider the whole and emulate it, not the part. From what we know it appears both of these two focused much less on correcting the Pope and much more on living the Gospel prayerfully.

I cannot speak regarding you, and in fact I have the impression this does not fit you, but for so many of our Traditionalists these days, their raison d’etre seems to be to attack the Pope and hierarchy, not to live the Gospel.

Unless you are divinely inspired, there is a fine line to walk here.

patent  +AMDG

[Saundra Duffy]

I keep thinking of those wonderful Catholics who showed up at the Population Research Institute conference. Those precious "Priests for Life". How the scandals must break their hearts. Too bad the heirarchy of the Catholic Church let the scandals get out of hand. So sad. I just can't get by all those young innocent children who were abused and scandalized!

[Saundra Duffy]

I am a Mormon. Jesus is my Savior, Redeemer, Creator, and my best Friend. Amen. The Catholics and I worship the same Jesus. The problem is the leadership of the Catholic Church; they haven't been doing the job. Homosexuality is not tolerated in the LDS Church. Period! And if a leader in the LDS Church sexually abused a child, that leader would GO TO JAIL!!!!!!!!

[patent]

The Catholics and I worship the same Jesus.

That you both consider an entity named Jesus to be God does not mean you worship the same Jesus. If you did worship the same Jesus your constant attacks on Catholics and hatred of their beliefs would certainly be even more shocking.

Do you believe there are many Gods? Do you believe the Trinity is three separate Gods? Do you believe God is married? We could go on, but you do not believe in the SAME God we do.

patent  +AMDG

[Havisham]

Not, can we definitively say that, in general, the U.S. bishops are in schism? There are few others whose opinion I would seriously attend on this question.

[patent]

Sandra Duffy:

The problem is the leadership of the Catholic Church; they haven't been doing the job. Homosexuality is not tolerated in the LDS Church. Period! And if a leader in the LDS Church sexually abused a child, that leader would GO TO JAIL!!!!!!!!

Reality:

Church lawyers acknowledgement that church's policy is to forgive and recycle child molesters in their priesthood:

"The [church] punished him [Curtis] under church law, he was forgiven, he repented, and he was rebaptized. And the church believes that he becomes a new person and you start from there."

"After the Church disciplined Curtis, Curtis repented for his sin...A rebaptism can cleanse a person of his previous transgressions and in the eyes of the Church...all can be forgiven."

     Stephen English, Attorney for Church at hearing on Motion for Summary Judgment in Scott v. Mormon Church, Portland, OR: 3/22/01

Does the Mormon Church Conceal Child Sexual Abuse and
Give Sanctuary to Known Sexual Predators?

                                              

Franklyn Richard Curtis - High Priest, Primary Teacher, Blazer
Leader, Home Teacher and for fifteen years known to the First Presidency
to be a Predatory Child Molester. Curtis sexually abused dozens of Mormon
children in five states. Yet he represents just the 'Tip of the Iceberg.'

Curtis was undoubtedly a sick individual. But what can you say about
an organization that covered up for his crimes over and over for eighteen
years?

     Parents  Beware!

This Church's Policies and Practices Make it a Haven for Child Molesters

Adult Survivors of Child Sexual Abuse: The Case of Mormon Women,
Gerdes, Beck, Cowan-Hancock and Wilkinson-Sparks, Affilia, Vol. 11, No.1, Spring 1966 (Journal of Social Work)

Study on 71 Mormon women survivors of abuse in their dealings with church leaders. Revealing high percentage were counseled to forget abuse or were disbelieved; and of eighty perpetrators, only 3 were disciplined by church in any way. Survivors of abuse were punished more harshly than was the sexual abuse of children by male priesthood holders. 
Affilia, a Journal of Social Work 1996     434-458

Church Shunned Sex Abuse Study/95 Report Faults Mormon Clergy for Handling of Victim Complaints,  Paul McKay, Houston Chronicle 5/10/99     454-59

Mormons Hit by Child-Sex Lawsuits
by Bob Van Voris     National Law Journal
11/16/98     323-325

Mormons Caught Up in Wave of Pedophile Accusations/Church Deals with Abuse Cases without Reporting them, Critics Say, Houston Chronicle 5/09/99     326-334

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Emphasizes Personal Propriety and the Value of Children. The Same Church Has Protected Serial Child Molesters Across the Country, by Lisa Davis,     Phoenix Times 12/10/94     334-369

Keeping Mum on Mormon Sexual Abuse by Marion Smith The Event, Vol. 15, No. 23
Salt Lake City, UT  3/28/96    370-376

Nowhere to Turn, the Lavar Withers Case (Church hierarchy ignore years of complaints of sexual abuse of female patients of Dr. Withers, a Stake President of the LDS church in Rexburg, ID. he Idaho Statesman Special Report
12/10/95     388-399

The Fairfield Wives
(Article about sexually abusive gynecologist and Stake President in Fairfield, CA whose abuse was ignored and covered up by Mormon Church leadership for years.) San Francisco Weekly, 8/5/98     398-433

The Darker Side of Virtue, Corruption, Scandal and the Mormon Empire, by Anson Shupe

Ch. 5: Child Abuse in Utah: The Family Secret

 Discusses interviews with Utah Social Services workers, prosecutors and child welfare advocates who report a problem with LDS bishops covering up child sexual abuse by attempting to counsel with pedophiles without reporting them. Also discusses interviews regarding church leaders lack of cooperation in prosecution of LDS sexual abusers.       Prometheus Books, Buffalo, NY 1991     376-382


From Deposition testimony of Dwayne Liddell, Risk Management Director for LDS Church on Church Child Abuse Safe Practices and Risk Management:

...No Screening out of child molesters

The church does not use screening forms with respect to church members who are called to work with children.  They do not screen "because the church is founded on religious tenets and is governed by ecclesiastical leaders. It is not part of the program."


...on combatting Child Sexual Abuse within the priesthood and by missionionaries

"Sexual abuse is a moral transgression and is dealt with in an ecclesiastical manner.  It is a risk that is managed by the ecclesiastical leaders according to the scripture and tenets of the church. The actions the church leadership has taken with respect to the loss ultimates are adequate."    



...on the Extent of Child Abuse in priesthood

The Risk Management department has never conducted a survey to determine the extent to which child sexual abuse happens within the church membership.  Liddell is not aware of any such surveys.  He is not aware of any database or central registry that tracks members or ex-members who have been accused of sexually abusing children.  He is aware that the Boy Scouts maintains a database of individuals who have been rejected or dismissed as scout leaders as a result of child sexual abuse.  Risk Management has never done any surveys to see if the churchs reporting policies in the area of child sexual abuse are being complied with.  Liddell, Dwayne     69-70
         
...on Flagging of Membership Records

"If a member had been disciplined for child abuse, the membership record would be flagged.  The flagged membership record would travel with the member until the ecclesiastical leader felt the flag should be removed."  Liddell testifies he has never, even once, seen a flag but knows it is on the membership certificate.  He does not know if the flag gets removed if a member is re-baptized. Liddell, Dwayne     76-79


...on Tracking known Pedophiles within the church

 because of design flaws in database indexing system it is impossible for church to know whether a current member was previously excommunicated for child sexual abuse. This is because a new membership number is issued upon re-baptism and the record does not show any prior record reference numbers.


...on Expert Consultations re: Child Sexual Abuse

Church leadership has not consulted with anyone outside the church relating to problem of child sexual abuse risk management. 

....on the Church Help Line

Its for clergy only, not for victims. Liddell was not responsible for setting up the help line.  He has no input into how it is staffed or its mission.  Risk Management does not receive any information re: frequency of use of the help line. Liddell, Dwayne 79-80

A pedophile who is excommunicated gets a new membership record upon rebaptism which has no reference to the prior history of abuse.('Clean-slate' doctrine at work.) No method of locating prior membership records because individual given a new membership number. System will not permit searching prior records without prior reference number. Affidavit of Dwayne Liddell Re Records Retention Policy

... on Tracking Pedophiles who are merely disfellowshipped for child sexual abuse following a church court

Membership record with notation (red-flag) need not be transmitted to Church Headquarters if only Disfellowshipped. Liddell Affidavit of May 28, 2001
    
...other Oddities

1. Use of term homosexual for sexual abuse of male children in church discipline.

2. No place on form to track whether local leaders reported incident to civil authorities, or if not why.

3. Disfellowship vs. Excommunication for sexual abuse of children: basis for differentiation for sexual abusers?

4. How track individual for whom allegations of sexual abuse made for which no discipline imposed? i.e. membership records only red-flagged if ex-communicated. What about all other circumstances?          

...and from Church lawyer Von Keetch and General Authority Harold Brown Interviews with Salt Lake Tribune October 17, 1999:

Brown admits that the church has no mandatory, regularized training program for its clergy on the proper handling of sex abuse complaints.

Admits church has no idea how extensive the problem is - all they do is count the number of lawsuits filed against it, divide by the number of congregations in the USA and guesses that it is below the national average for churches in general.

Asserts that in almost all instances bishops are able to get a confessing perpetrator to turn himself in to the police eliminating the dilemma of the clergy-penitent privilege. Also claim that state law in many states "require clergy to keep the confidences that they receive in confidential communications...that is clergy are faced with breaking the law if they were to divulge confidential information"[This is a clear mistatement of the law: Clergy privilege does not require churches not to disclose.]

Harold Brown is a General Authority (Quorum of the Seventy)
Von Keetch is partner at Kirton McConkie Law Firm and counsel to church.     

...on the church Helpline

Keetch says the 800 Hotline and occasional seminars on sex abuse for lay clergy is the church's exclusive strategy for dealing with the problem, which they also claim is now fixed. Keetch claims there have been no lawsuits yet alleging negligence post-1995 when the Hotline was established.

Admits that church keep no records of the number or nature of calls that come in on the hotline. It rings into LDS social services and is manned by an individual (who was a former stake president ).It call forwards after hours to his cell phone. If there is a reporting issue he conferences-in Von Keetch.

Acknowledges that church does no background checks on members involved with youth.

Concedes that there are no reporting resources for victims and their families within the LDS, just clergy.    
 
Protocol sheet for Helpline reflects:

Clergy are urged not to report abuse directly to police.

Helpline is not for helping victims or getting child molesters reported to police but is about church claims management and scandal control.

Other statements by Church Authorities on Child Sexual Abuse:

from Healing the Tragic Scars of Abuse, Ensign Magazine, Official Monthly Magazine of the Church to its Membership.

"Victim must do all in his power to stop the abuse. Priesthood leader will help assess [victim's] responsibility so that it can be addressed."

"No matter what degree of responsibility, the healing power of atonement can ...can provide a complete cure."

"Forgiveness can be obtained for all involved in abuse...As a victim do not waste effort in revenge or retribution against your aggressor."

"I caution you not to participate in two improper therapeutic practices that may cause you more harm than good. They are: Excessive probing into every minute detail of your past experiences, particularly when this involved penetrating dialogue in group discussion; and blaming the abuser for every difficulty in your life... should be done privately."

"There is no need to pick at healing wounds to open them and cause them to fester...The repair of damage inflicted by abuse confidentially, with a trusted priesthood leader and, where needed, the qualified professional he recommends." The Ensign, May 1992, Apostle Richard G. Scott     32-33

...what the churchs pamphlets instructs its clergy about reporting

 "Any required reporting of child abuse should usually be done by the offender or by others having knowledge of the problem." Child Abuse Helps for Ecclesiastical Leaders.

 Overtly discourages clergy reporting by advising its lower clergy that reporting of child abuse through others and only where local reporting laws make it mandatory.     

...how the church defends its practice of recycling child molesters in court

Church lawyers acknowledgement that church's policy is to forgive and recycle child molesters in their priesthood:

"The [church] punished him [Curtis] under church law, he was forgiven, he repented, and he was rebaptized. And the church believes that he becomes a new person and you start from there."

"After the Church disciplined Curtis, Curtis repented for his sin...A rebaptism can cleanse a person of his previous transgressions and in the eyes of the Church...all can be forgiven."

     Stephen English, Attorney for Church at hearing on Motion for Summary Judgment in Scott v. Mormon Church, Portland, OR: 3/22/01

[Antoninus]

Here we see the next phase of AmChurch's attempt to strike back. Declare that the Michael Roses and RCFs of the world are the 'dissenters' (because they dare to publicize wicked deeds that are highly destructive of the Church) and that they themselves are the true protectors of the Pope and the Church. Seems like yet another desperate move on their part. Get real, Mr. Hand. If you read Michael Rose's book, Goodbye, Good Men you would know that Mr. Rose is not a Pope basher. He is a liberal basher, a modernist basher, and a sexual profligate basher. Let us focus upon the true enemies of the Church -- the pseudo-Catholic dissenter groups, the active, unrepentent homosexuals in the priesthood and episcopacy, and the Culture of Death storm troopers on the outside.

[Antoninus]

Believing that Assisi, or kissing the Koran, or making Roger Mahony Cardinal Archbishop of LA were blunders in prudential wisdom (IMO, all of them were) does not make one less of a Catholic, and is not somehow tantamount to sedevacantism.

Worth repeating.