When The Pope's Friends Walk Away

TCRnews.com ^ | 7-25-2002 | Stephen Hand

[Notwithstanding]

A number of disturbing reports are heard lately that some of the Holy Father's former friends are in danger of collapsing in the storms; collapsing into the chaos of selective obedience, into the dangers of private judgment's non sequiturs. Michael Rose is trucking with pope-bashers and marketing his books through them, Robert Sungenis is rashly attacking the Pope on Assisi, Patrick Madrid is selling his books at a notorious pope-trashing website and giving "exclusive" excerpts to that site which also peddles the works of the worst schismatics who publicly call for an official "suspension of obedience" to the "Popes of Vatican II," and who gleefully and absurdly predict that JPII will be deposed for heresies. A group called "Roman Catholic Faithful" is openly publishing the works of these men too. Gerry Matatics, of course, has long shown aggressive solidarity with all these.

At first one hopes there is a misunderstanding. Maybe it's just the fact that a certain small percentage of converts or reverts will inevitably go off the rails for a time; maybe they have not fully overcome their fundamentalist spirit and suspicions toward "Rome," or their instinctive splitting into "remnants," and their personalistic "evangelism" wherein if they feel they are "called" to go on the circuit preaching tour, then they infer they must be "sent" by God, though this is contrary to all Catholic teaching, obedience and humility.

Maybe, though---which God forbid---it is a less innocent motive: simply the desire for money. What many, if not most, of these have in common is something to sell. Books, tapes, magazines, whatever...And maybe they haven't considered how immoral it is from a Catholic point of view to put marketing and personal security above the Truth. Michael Davies has long allowed the most virulent Pope-attackers to publish and sell his books and has led the way in all this. Cottage industries need "markets". Ask Fr. Gruner.

Better to sell no books, or just one book, with the Pope, than a million apart from him. Better to have Our Lord's warning about millstones around ones neck and judgment than to scandalize Christ's innocent ones by leading them into wolves dens to sell ones books or magazines.

Whatever the case, some of these cannot easily plead ignorance, even if others are merely confused. Most know what is what where websites and infamous Integrists are concerned. The goal of the older, more cynical Integrists has long been to pretend that conservatives and integrists are doing the same thing, which is absurd.

It only takes a little poison...

Whatever the case, it appears that some are showing signs of whithering on the Vine. They seem to be moving from complete loyalty to the Holy Father and the teaching Church to a place of shadows where fidelity mixes with persecution.

Invariably, when one points this out and shouts a warning, the more experienced and cynical in the ways of schism and anti-papal doctrinal collapse encourage their neophytes to respond with absurd charges of ultramontanism or to cynically shout down, ad hominem, the ones who try to warn them, as if no dogmatic certainties were at stake: "Who made YOU the measure of the Catholic Faith! Canon law allows criticism!"

Yes, but not this kind of criticism which moves qualitatively from inner personal concern or "dissent" to outright public attack, which even has the temerity to charge the Popes with heresies or rupture with Tradition which is the second prong of revelation itself.

The Holy Father and living magisterium, the teaching Church, is the measure of the Faith, not Catholic persons or groups.

We are living in sad times. When, earlier, I saw my old friends moving toward the cliffs of schism, well beyond constructive criticism, when they refused to hear the warnings, I knew it was time to bail. One's soul was at stake. I saw the logical trajectory of private judgment toward which Integrist presuppositions were leading .

The Holy Father is being persecuted from all sides today in something like apocalyptic storms. And now, some of his former friends are showing signs of deserting that cross and blaming him for the consequences of not heeding his own teachings-----and they do not see how ironic and absurd and tragic that is.

Real traditionalists---such as we are proud to be--- have their wheels on the dogmatic rails. Ask any Neo-modernist and he'll tell you where TCR is on the theological spectrum and they will not hesitate to say we are traditionalists, but with our wheels on the tracks, with Peter, who, together with his bishops, alone has the right to mediate, interpret, and develop Catholic Tradition.

Sometimes a warning must be sounded.

[Catholicguy]

Avery Dulles concedes the point.

what point?

[Catholicguy]

When he started his website the divisions among Catholics were less clear and so was terminology.

Wrong. The schismatic right was opposing the Ecumenical Council. the Pope, Canon Law, Encyclicals LONG before TCRnews was launched

[Catholicguy]

Can anyone name a single heretical view held by SSPX

The Angelus has published that the normative Mass does not fulfill one's Sunday obligation as it is invalid. Telling supporters of the sspx schism that the Catholic Church has a normative Mass that is invalid is described as what, in your vocabulary

[narses]

In what way did I mischarecterize it? My words were exact, specific and accurate. Please try and NOT misrepresent what I say and what I believe.

[Catholicguy]

But the nasty and arrogant and patronizing judging of mens' souls and mens' motives must stop.

"Let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me.." :) S.H. has never judged another's soul nor is he judging motive. He is describing actions that indicate, to him, the path that certain individuals are on.

It USED to be considered a "traditional" idea that one would warn others of the proximate danger their actions might lead to

I think you are "too close" to the conflict to judge it accurately

[narses]

You keep repeating that, are you honestly and completely reporting what was actually published? Your bias is clear. Have you a link?

[sitetest]

Dear ultima ratio,

I read Cardinal Dulles' article. He doesn't seem to concede any points at all.

sitetest

[narses]

I disagree. SH branded me as polycarp (I am not) and an "integrist" (I am still unsure what he means by that as he would never explain himself). He does judge others and he does so based on flawed reasoning and in the face of fact, even after correction. That you embrace and defend him in the face of his own conduct speaks volumes.

[Catholicguy]

So when Pope St. Pius V said that anyone who "changes the Mass let him be anathema" does that mean that all the hierarchy involved in the creation of the Novus Ordo will go to hell?

That was standard boilerplate rhetoric for Encyclicals of that time. There is another Encyclical of that time that uses the same language in warning others not to change the brievary. Of course, it was changed but we don't hear schismatics ranting about that - prolly cause Michael Davies hasn't written an essay about that.

It seems very presumptuous for you to be judging the soul Archbishop Lefbvre. Where's the "John Paul II We Love You" crowd in extendeing charity to Lefbvre?

I didn't judge his soul. Charity was extended to Lefebvre in a monumental fashion. It was never returned. Rome wen the extra 10,000 miles trying to accomodate him.

[Polycarp]

I was shocked to learn that many catholics (including your own dear Da) were on the receiving end of hateful, threatening emails.

Its only been a couple days since I openly proclaimed my identity here on FRee Republic, and re-posted the HTML on my profile page. Already the hateful internet emails have resumed. Here's one from yesterday:

After reading your "culture of death" article (which I accidentally stumbled across) I feel very sorry for you. It seems that your feeling of self-worth is wrapped tightly to your heavy-handed judgment of other people. You claim to be a Roman Catholic, yet in your article you seem to ignore the teachings of Jesus Christ concerning judgments, forgiveness, humility and charity.

By your photograph it seems that you have an eating disorder. Such things say much ... much more than words ... about how a person really feels about him- or herself. Seek spiritual healing and it will manifest physically in your person. Teach from the heart, not from ritual or from formulaic and unchallenged generalizations.

I am glad that you love your children and happy for them that they have a loving father. But just consider ...

thousands, perhaps millions of people are being saved right now in Africa because of contraception;

loving gay and lesbian couples are giving to each other, to their churches and to their communities the only way they can. [Are you aware that some of the heroes of 9/11 were gay?] Perhaps a gay man or a lesbian woman will one day save your life, or your child's life. Would you still damn him or her to hell?

There may be nothing I can write in this e-mail message that will help you. But then again, maybe something I write will get you thinking. Small town doesn't matter. Small mind does.

I mean you no harm. In fact, I wish you well and leave you with a blessing. To the extent I have judged you, I apologize. To the extent my words may help you, I give thanks to God.

I wonder if its worth it...

*****

The bashers, those who don't understand or hate the faith, are one thing...but this recent phenomena of catholics tearing each other apart on the forum is much more discouraging IMO.

Frankly, there is always give and take among Catholic FReepers here. That is normal and healthy.

However, nerves are frayed beyond any semblance of normal by the homosexual abuse crisis in the Church. Some of us are actively dealing with and helping victims themselves, and in that respect its hard to stay objective. It is very disconcerting to hear these stories then see the lack of action by our hierarchy at and following Dallas to the homosexual roots of the crisis.

Everyone is searching for the root cause and possible solutions.

It serves no purpose to heap scorn on those honestly searching for answers.

And frankly, isn't it at least worth noting that the worst examples of this recent phenomena of catholics tearing each other apart on the forum have revolved around either editorials by TCRNews.com or posts on the forum by their staffers, because of the way they are maligning good faithful Catholics seeking answers and solutions in their own humble way?

That is primarily my point in all of this.

[Catholicguy]

We have ploughed this same field several times. I am not going to go over this again with you. Bookmark the decision and the explanation. I know you reject it so your arguement is with the Pope, not me

[Notwithstanding]

In my Novus Ordo parish: "everything is done to alert the faithful to His actual presence on the altar. Bells are rung. People fall to their knees. A hush descends."


As an analogy:
I have been to the traditional Latin Mass and sat in the back and noticed that few people were paying much attention to what was going on throughout the Mass. Is that a reason to condemn that form of the Mass? Of course not.

[Orual]

Bob Bennett? No way! Can you confirm this?

Go to the 9th paragraph.

[narses]

Actually not. You claim I mischarecterized the decision. I clearly did not. Try and see the difference. Like your friend SH your are unfairly and seemingly dishonestly maligning me. If you can show me where, on this thread, I mischarecterized either the decision or the status of the entities involved, I will apologize.

[sitetest]

Dear narses,

I assume that you're referring to the Assyrian rite as heretical. If that's so, please explain why you consider them in heresy.

Thanks.

sitetest

[Catholicguy]

And frankly, isn't it at least worth noting that the worst examples of this recent phenomena of catholics tearing each other apart on the forum have revolved around either editorials by TCRNews.com or posts on the forum by their staffers,

This was happening LONG before S.H. signed on as a Freeper. Trying to make TCR responsible makes no sense. I take responsibility for my part in the arguement. I have decided to speak as forcefully and as persuasively as I can with and to those who oppose the Pope, the Magisterium, the normative Mass, Encyclicals. For me, the gloves are off and I don't accept the "no enemies on the right" idea because those on the right will NOT cease their criticism of The Magisterium and they specialise in attacking the Pope.

[narses]

In point of fact, my argument is NOT with the Pope, it is with Card. Kasper and what I believe is a flawed decision of his. You might really want to try harder to not mischarecterize what I believe or what I say. I would appreciate that greatly.

[Notwithstanding]

Is Stephen Hand FReeper? What is his name here?

[Catholicguy]

and, it is worth noting that many folks just used to pray the Rosary during Mass and many Masses were said in under 30 mins. My old priest in Vt, could say the Mass in 18 mins :)