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Mark Twain on the Book of Mormon
Roughing It | 1872 | Mark Twain

Posted on 07/07/2002 4:27:46 PM PDT by P-Marlowe

Chapter 16

All men have heard of the Mormon Bible, but few except the "elect" have seen it, or, at least, taken the trouble to read it. I brought away a copy from Salt Lake. The book is a curiosity to me, it is such a pretentious affair, and yet so "slow," so sleepy; such an insipid mess of inspiration. It is chloroform in print. If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was a miracle--keeping awake while he did it was, at any rate. If he, according to tradition, merely translated it from certain ancient and mysteriously-engraved plates of copper, which he declares he found under a stone, in an out-of-the-way locality, the work of translating was equally a miracle, for the same reason.

The book seems to be merely a prosy detail of imaginary history, with the Old Testament for a model; followed by a tedious plagiarism of the New Testament. The author labored to give his words and phrases the quaint, old-fashioned sound and structure of our King James's translation of the Scriptures; and the result is a mongrel--half modern glibness, and half ancient simplicity and gravity. The latter is awkward and constrained; the former natural, but grotesque by the contrast. Whenever he found his speech growing too modern--which was about every sentence or two--he ladled in a few such Scriptural phrases as "exceeding sore," "and it came to pass," etc., and made things satisfactory again. "And it came to pass" was his pet. If he had left that out, his Bible would have been only a pamphlet.

The title-page reads as follows:

THE BOOK OF MORMON: AN ACCOUNT WRITTEN BY THE HAND OF MORMON, UPON PLATES TAKEN FROM THE PLATES OF NEPHI.

Wherefore it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites; written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the House of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile; written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation. Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed; to come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof; sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by the way of Gentile; the interpretation thereof by the gift of God. An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also; which is a record of the people of Jared; who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people when they were building a tower to get to Heaven.

"Hid up" is good. And so is "wherefore"--though why "wherefore"? Any other word would have answered as well--though--in truth it would not have sounded so Scriptural.

Next comes:

THE TESTIMONY OF THREE WITNESSES. Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work shall come, that we, through the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, have seen the plates which contain this record, which is a record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites, their brethren, and also of the people of Jared, who came from the tower of which hath been spoken; and we also know that they have been translated by the gift and power of God, for His voice hath declared it unto us; wherefore we know of a surety that the work is true. And we also testify that we have seen the engravings which are upon the plates; and they have been shown unto us by the power of God, and not of man. And we declare with words of soberness, that an angel of God came down from heaven, and he brought and laid before our eyes, that we beheld and saw the plates, and the engravings thereon; and we know that it is by the grace of God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, that we beheld and bear record that these things are true; and it is marvellous in our eyes; nevertheless the voice of the Lord commanded us that we should bear record of it; wherefore, to be obedient unto the commandments of God, we bear testimony of these things. And we know that if we are faithful in Christ, we shall rid our garments of the blood of all men, and be found spotless before the judgment-seat of Christ, and shall dwell with Him eternally in the heavens. And the honor be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Ghost, which is one God. Amen. OLIVER COWDERY, DAVID WHITMER, MARTIN HARRIS.

Some people have to have a world of evidence before they can come anywhere in the neighborhood of believing anything; but for me, when a man tells me that he has "seen the engravings which are upon the plates," and not only that, but an angel was there at the time, and saw him see them, and probably took his receipt for it, I am very far on the road to conviction, no matter whether I ever heard of that man before or not, and even if I do not know the name of the angel, or his nationality either.

Next is this:

AND ALSO THE TESTIMONY OF EIGHT WITNESSES. Be it known unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people unto whom this work shall come, that Joseph Smith, Jr., the translator of this work, has shown unto us the plates of which hath been spoken, which have the appearance of gold; and as many of the leaves as the said Smith has translated, we did handle with our hands; and we also saw the engravings thereon, all of which has the appearance of ancient work, and of curious workmanship. And this we bear record with words of soberness, that the said Smith has shown unto us, for we have seen and hefted, and know of a surety that the said Smith has got the plates of which we have spoken. And we give our names unto the world, to witness unto the world that which we have seen; and we lie not, God bearing witness of it. CHRISTIAN WHITMER, JACOB WHITMER, PETER WHITMER, JR., JOHN WHITMER, HIRAM PAGE, JOSEPH SMITH, SR., HYRUM SMITH, SAMUEL H. SMITH.

And when I am far on the road to conviction, and eight men, be they grammatical or otherwise, come forward and tell me that they have seen the plates too; and not only seen those plates but "hefted" them, I am convinced. I could not feel more satisfied and at rest if the entire Whitmer family had testified.

The Mormon Bible consists of fifteen "books"--being the books of Jacob, Enos, Jarom, Omni, Mosiah, Zeniff, Alma, Helaman, Ether, Moroni, two "books" of Mormon, and three of Nephi.

In the first book of Nephi is a plagiarism of the Old Testament, which gives an account of the exodus from Jerusalem of the "children of Lehi"; and it goes on to tell of their wanderings in the wilderness, during eight years, and their supernatural protection by one of their number, a party by the name of Nephi. They finally reached the land of "Bountiful," and camped by the sea. After they had remained there "for the space of many days"--which is more Scriptural than definite--Nephi was commanded from on high to build a ship wherein to "carry the people across the waters." He travestied Noah's ark--but he obeyed orders in the matter of the plan. He finished the ship in a single day, while his brethren stood by and made fun of it--and of him, too--"saying, our brother is a fool, for he thinketh that he can build a ship." They did not wait for the timbers to dry, but the whole tribe or nation sailed the next day. Then a bit of genuine nature cropped out, and is revealed by outspoken Nephi with Scriptural frankness--they all got on a spree! They, "and also their wives, began to make themselves merry, insomuch that they began to dance, and to sing, and to speak with much rudeness; yea, they were lifted up unto exceeding rudeness."

Nephi tried to stop these scandalous proceedings; but they tied him neck and heels, and went on with their lark. But observe how Nephi the prophet circumvented them by the aid of the invisible powers:

And it came to pass that after they had bound me, insomuch that I could not move, the compass, which had been prepared of the Lord, did cease to work; wherefore, they knew not whither they should steer the ship, insomuch that there arose a great storm, yea, a great and terrible tempest, and we were driven back upon the waters for the space of three days; and they began to be frightened exceedingly, lest they should be drowned in the sea; nevertheless they did not loose me. And on the fourth day, which we had been driven back, the tempest began to be exceeding sore. And it came to pass that we were about to be swallowed up in the depths of the sea.

Then they untied him.

And it came to pass after they had loosed me, behold, I took the compass, and it did work whither I desired it. And it came to pass that I prayed unto the Lord; and after I had prayed, the winds did cease, and the storm did cease, and there was a great calm.

Equipped with their compass, these ancients appear to have had the advantage of Noah.

Their voyage was toward a "promised land"--the only name they give it. They reached it in safety.

Polygamy is a recent feature in the Mormon religion, and was added by Brigham Young after Joseph Smith's death. Before that, it was regarded as an "abomination." This verse from the Mormon Bible occurs in Chapter II. of the book of Jacob:

For behold, thus saith the Lord, this people begin to wax in iniquity; they understand not the Scriptures; for they seek to excuse themselves in committing whoredoms, because of the things which were written concerning David, and Solomon his son. Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord; wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led this people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph. Wherefore, I the Lord God, will no suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.

However, the project failed--or at least the modern Mormon end of it--for Brigham "suffers" it. This verse is from the same chapter:

Behold, the Lamanites your brethren, whom ye hate, because of their filthiness and the cursings which hath come upon their skins, are more righteous than you; for they have not forgotten the commandment of the Lord, which was given unto our fathers, that they should have, save it were one wife; and concubines they should have none.

The following verse (from Chapter IX. of the Book of Nephi) appears to contain information not familiar to everybody:

And now it came to pass that when Jesus had ascended into heaven, the multitude did disperse, and every man did take his wife and his children, and did return to his own home.
And it came to pass that on the morrow, when the multitude was gathered together, behold, Nephi and his brother whom he had raised from the dead, whose name was Timothy, and also his son, whose name was Jonas, and also Mathoni, and Mathonihah, his brother, and Kumen, and Kumenenhi, and Jeremiah, and Shemnon, and Jonas, and Zedekiah, and Isaiah; now these were the names of the disciples whom Jesus had chosen.

In order that the reader may observe how much more grandeur and picturesqueness (as seen by these Mormon twelve) accompanied on of the tenderest episodes in the life of our Saviour than other eyes seem to have been aware of, I quote the following from the same "book"--Nephi:

And it came to pass that Jesus spake unto them, and bade them arise. And they arose from the earth, and He said unto them, Blessed are ye because of your faith. And now behold, My joy is full. And when He had said these words, He wept, and the multitude bear record of it, and He took their little children, one by one, and blessed them, and prayed unto the Father for them. And when He had done this He wept again, and He spake unto the multitude, and saith unto them, Behold your little ones. And as they looked to behold, they cast their eyes toward heaven, and they saw the heavens open, and they saw angels descending out of heaven as it were, in the midst of fire; and they came down and encircled those little ones about, and they were encircled about with fire; and the angels did minister unto them, and the multitude did see and hear and bear record; and they know that their record is true, for they all of them did see and hear, every man for himself; and they were in number about two thousand and five hundred souls; and they did consist of men, women, and children.

And what else would they be likely to consist of?

The Book of Ether is an incomprehensible medley of if "history," much of it relating to battles and sieges among peoples whom the reader has possibly never heard of; and who inhabited a country which is not set down in the geography. These was a King with the remarkable name of Coriantumr,^^ and he warred with Shared, and Lib, and Shiz, and others, in the "plains of Heshlon"; and the "valley of Gilgal"; and the "wilderness of Akish"; and the "land of Moran"; and the "plains of Agosh"; and "Ogath," and "Ramah," and the "land of Corihor," and the "hill Comnor," by "the waters of Ripliancum," etc., etc., etc. "And it came to pass," after a deal of fighting, that Coriantumr, upon making calculation of his losses, found that "there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children"--say 5,000,000 or 6,000,000 in all--"and he began to sorrow in his heart." Unquestionably it was time. So he wrote to Shiz, asking a cessation of hostilities, and offering to give up his kingdom to save his people. Shiz declined, except upon condition that Coriantumr would come and let him cut his head off first--a thing which Coriantumr would not do. Then there was more fighting for a season; then four years were devoted to gathering the forces for a final struggle--after which ensued a battle, which, I take it, is the most remarkable set forth in history,--except, perhaps, that of the Kilkenny cats, which it resembles in some respects. This is the account of the gathering and the battle:

7. And it came to pass that they did gather together all the people, upon all the face of the land, who had not been slain, save it was Ether. And it came to pass that Ether did behold all the doings of the people; and he beheld that the people who were for Coriantumr, were gathered together to the army of Coriantumr; and the people who were for Shiz, were gathered together to the army of Shiz; wherefore they were for the space of four years gathering together the people, that they might get all who were upon the face of the land, and that they might receive all the strength which it was possible that they could receive. And it came to pass that when they were all gathered together, every one to the army which he would, with their wives and their children; both men, women, and children being armed with weapons of war, having shields, and breast-plates, and head-plates, and being clothed after the manner of war, they did march forth one against another, to battle; and they fought all that day, and conquered not. And it came to pass that when it was night they were weary, and retired to their camps; and after they had retired to their camps, they took up a howling and a lamentation for the loss of the slain of their people; and so great were their cries, their howlings and lamentations, that it did rend the air exceedingly. And it came to pass that on the morrow they did go again to battle, and great and terrible was that day; nevertheless they conquered not, and when the night came again, they did rend the air with their cries, and their howlings, and their mournings, for the loss of the slain of their people.
8. And it came to pass that Coriantumr wrote again an epistle unto Shiz, desiring that he would not come again to battle, but that he would take the kingdom, and spare the lives of the people. But behold, the Spirit of the Lord had ceased striving with them, and Satan had full power over the hearts of the people, for they were given up unto the hardness of their hearts, and the blindness of their minds that they might be destroyed; wherefore they went again to battle. And it came to pass that they fought all that day, and when the night came they slept upon their swords; and on the morrow they fought even until the night came; and when the night came they were drunken with anger, even as a man who is drunken with wine; and they slept again upon their swords; and on the morrow they fought again; and when the night came they had all fallen by the sword save it were fifty and two of the people of Coriantumr, and sixty and nine of the people of Shiz. And it came to pass that they slept upon their swords that night, and on the morrow they fought again, and they contended in their mights with their swords, and with their shields, all that day; and when the night came there were thirty and two of the people of Shiz, and twenty and seven of the people of Coriantumr.
9. And it came to pass that they ate and slept, and prepared for death on the morrow. And they were large and mighty men, as to the strength of men. And it came to pass that they fought for the space of three hours, and they fainted with the loss of blood. And it came to pass that when the men of Coriantumr had received sufficient strength, that they could walk, they were about to flee for their lives, but behold, Shiz arose, and also his men, and he swore in his wrath that he would slay Coriantumr, or he would perish by the sword: wherefore he did pursue them, and on the morrow he did overtake them; and they fought again with the sword. And it came to pass that when they had all fallen by the sword, save it were Coriantumr and Shiz, behold Shiz had fainted with loss of blood. And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz. And it came to pass that after he had smote off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised upon his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died. And it came to pass that Coriantumr fell to the earth, and became as if he had no life. And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him, go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he finished his record; and the hundredth part I have not written.

It seems a pity he did not finish, for after all his dreary former chapters of commonplace, he stopped just as he was in danger of becoming interesting.

The Mormon Bible is rather stupid and tiresome to read, but there is nothing vicious in its teachings. Its code of morals is unobjectionable- -it is "smouched" [Milton] from the New Testament and no credit given.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: bookofmormon
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To: Wrigley
That's a poor choice, Stroh's or Blue Ribbion!

Blue Stuff is not the Blue plate Speical it is Arthrist rub!

261 posted on 07/11/2002 6:50:41 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
I thought you couldn't drink alcohol? Or was this in your pre LDS days?
262 posted on 07/11/2002 7:00:05 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: RnMomof7
Well, I had a good day so I thought I'd share.
263 posted on 07/11/2002 7:01:32 PM PDT by Wrigley
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To: Wrigley
When I was in Michigan I was mainstream!
264 posted on 07/11/2002 7:02:32 PM PDT by restornu
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To: Wrigley
LOL......
265 posted on 07/11/2002 7:02:43 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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Comment #266 Removed by Moderator

To: ATOMIC_PUNK
SPAM ALERT!!!!! Hey when you post 10,000 words Please just start your own thread. This is totally uncalled for!
267 posted on 07/11/2002 7:39:53 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
Sorry only 6415 words here it dont count as spam maybe just some potted meat!
268 posted on 07/11/2002 7:49:42 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
It's still spam and its really not necessary. You would be much more effective asking one question at a time and engaging those you disagree with rather than posting 200 questions that nobody is going to answer.

My advice is that you push the abuse button and kindly request that the moderator pull your post and then join in the discussion with one question at a time.

<><

Marlowe

269 posted on 07/11/2002 7:55:14 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: drstevej
Hey Cubicle Guy. You know any more about Heavenly Mother beyond her marriage to HF and her having spirit babies, incluing Jesus...

You're just trying to drag me back into that Adam/God stuff again, and make me annoy my fellow Latter-day Saints, aren't you? ;-)

Found the following footnotes in chapter 1 of the book "Women of Covenant", by Jill Mulvay Derr:

  1. President Wilford Woodruff ascribed to Eliza R. Snow the initial conceptualization of the doctrine as "a revelation . . . given to us by a woman." "Discourse," Millennial Star 56 (April 9, 1894): 229. President Joseph F. Smith said, "God revealed that principle to Joseph Smith; Joseph Smith revealed it to Eliza Snow Smith, his wife; and Eliza Snow was inspired, being a poet, to put it into verse." Deseret News 9 (February 1895). For Eliza Snow's statement, see David McKay to Mrs. James Hood, March 16, 1916, photocopy of holograph, Church Archives.
  1. Affirming her existence, yet acknowledging a lack of specific knowledge of the Mother in Heaven, President Gordon B. Hinckley said in 1991: "[N]one of us can add to or diminish the glory of her of whom we have no revealed knowledge," Ensign, 21 (November 1991): 100. See also Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund, First Presidency of the Church, "The Origin of Man," Improvement Era 13 (November 1909): 78: "All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity"; Spencer W. Kimball, Conference Report, April 1978, 7: "[W]hen we sing that doctrinal hymn and anthem of affection, 'O My Father, 'we get a sense of the ultimate in maternal modesty, of the restrained, queenly elegance of our Heavenly Mother."

The following is from Victor Ludlow's "Principles and Practices":

Our existence as unorganized intelligence comprised the major portion of our first estate. At some point, however, God the Father took what is called primal or unorganized intelligence, combined it with other spirit elements, and organized them into intelligent spirit personages—each unique, independent, and endowed with the power to think and act for itself as his spirit child. The process by which this spirit came into being is called a spirit birth, for "the Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" and joint heirs with our elder brother, Jesus Christ. (Rom. 8:16-18.) As with our natural birth, two parents were involved—our Father in Heaven and a lesser-known but vital Mother in Heaven. As one Mormon writer noted, "Latter-day Saints believe that all the people of the earth . . . are actual spiritual offspring of God the Eternal Father (Num. 16:22; Heb. 12:9). In this perspective, parenthood requires both father and mother, whether for the creation of spirits in the premortal life or of physical tabernacles on earth. A Heavenly Mother shares parenthood with the Heavenly Father. This concept leads Latter-day Saints to believe that she is like him in glory, perfection, compassion, wisdom, and holiness."

Nibley, in a work titled "Patriarchy and Matriarchy", gives us the following interesting information:

In the earliest Christian poem, "The Pearl," and in recently discovered Mandaean manuscripts (the Berlin Kephalia), the Christian comes to earth from his heavenly home, leaving his royal parents behind, for a period of testing upon the earth. Then, having overcome the dragon, he returns to the heavenly place, where he is given a rousing welcome. The first person to greet him on his return is his heavenly mother, who was the last one to embrace him as he left to go down to earth. "The first embrace is that which the Mother of Life gave to the First Man as he separated himself from her in order to come down to earth to his testing." So we have a division of labor. The angels are male because they are missionaries, as the Church on the earth is essentially a missionary organization; the women are engaged in another, but equally important, task: preserving the establishment while the men are away. This relationship is pervasive in the tradition of the race—what the geographer Jean Bruhnes called "the wise force of the earth and the mad force of the sun."

And in a work called "Sacred Vestments" (about ancient evidences of holy clothing similar to our temple garments), Nibley finds this:

Another very important writing is the so-called Gospel of Truth, discovered in Egypt, one of the Nag Hammadi papyri: "The word of the Father clothes everyone from top to bottom, purifies, and makes them fit to come back into the presence of their Father and their heavenly mother." [Gospel of Truth 23:33, 24:7, in The Nag Hammadi Library in English, 41.]

That ought to give you enough to chew on for a while.

270 posted on 07/11/2002 7:58:36 PM PDT by CubicleGuy
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To: P-Marlowe; RnMomof7
Oh no! We've been bombed!

Run away! Run away!


For those that were actually paying attention, yes, indeed, some of those are good questions. However, most of them are just warmed-over trash.

For example: Why were there missionaries in the Book of Mormon before Christ? That certainly wasn't the case in the Old World. Where was Jonah going, then?

And it certainly is a surprise that Christ would heal people he meets both in the old world and the new. Really?

And the bit about 4000 changes to the BoM? Well, it was originally written in novel form. They later converted it to chapter and verse form. All but a few of the changes consist of this type.

Indeed, there are a few changes left. And most LDS are willing to discuss them. But not when attacked with an intentionally misleading 4000 changes scream.

I suspect that even many of the non-LDS on this thread could dispute a good part of this screed. I suspect that I could address every one of them, but I don't have the six months it would take to go point-to-point through this drive-by shooting. Especially since we would probably see it again in another six months, complete with the "no missionaries in the OT" and all.

271 posted on 07/11/2002 7:59:48 PM PDT by T. P. Pole
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To: P-Marlowe
These questions arent to answer.... their ammunition to use against a defunked lie ! Starting with plates that never existed .....whatever means needed to defeat this false prophesy There is only one true god and my beleif is he was not a mourmon
272 posted on 07/11/2002 8:03:52 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
These questions arent to answer

These threads are for discussion and not for proselytizing. Since you don't want your questions answered, then I am going to punch the abuse button and have your post pulled. Go Spam somebody else's thread.

273 posted on 07/11/2002 8:13:34 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
What makes you think im trying to convert your faith ? ahhhhhh nevermind i wont reply anymore ill punch the abues button wouldnt want you to hafta understand anything you dont want to
274 posted on 07/11/2002 8:21:00 PM PDT by ATOMIC_PUNK
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To: ATOMIC_PUNK
ahhhhhh nevermind i wont reply anymore ill punch the abues button wouldnt want you to hafta understand anything you dont want to

Spoken like a real genius.

275 posted on 07/11/2002 8:29:59 PM PDT by P-Marlowe
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To: P-Marlowe
That's funny. He thinks you're LDS.
276 posted on 07/11/2002 8:31:03 PM PDT by T. P. Pole
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To: CubicleGuy; RnMomof7; Wrigley
***You're just trying to drag me back into that Adam/God stuff again***

Not really, I haven't worked through the Adam-God stuff or followed the threads on it. I am more interested in how a HM can be either created or alternatively eternal. It seems it has to be one or the other.

If she is eternal and Jesus is not, then it seems she has more to commend worship than He. If she too is created (and not born, since there would be no HM to give birth to HM) then is she the only spirit being who is created and not born or not eternal.

In short, this whole HM thing is really perplexing.

Other LDS retreat into the it isn't revealed response, thought you might have some insight.

drj
277 posted on 07/11/2002 8:36:29 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7
"So the repetance would follow the proxie baptism? ...Would the acceptance and repetance be seen as possible without the baptism or does it have to follow the baptism."

A proxie baptism has no effect on anything untill the person it is done for accepts it, and they could only do that after repentance. So, in theory, a person could die on Monday, have a proxie baptism done for him the next day, but they would have to be taught the gospel, accept it and repent before they could accept the proxie baptism. At that point it becoms as if they were baptised when they accept it. The order does not change, first is faith, then repentance, then baptism.
"Does this mean it is only applicible to those that never heard as opposed to those that heard and did not believe."

see #233
278 posted on 07/11/2002 8:37:11 PM PDT by Grig
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To: RnMomof7
If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

"This seems to indicate that once a man dies there is no further opportunity to change your eternity. "

In this specific case, it's pretty clear that the people in question have made a choice to reject God's word before death.
279 posted on 07/11/2002 8:41:51 PM PDT by Grig
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To: RnMomof7
"I still can not see someone refusing something that they KNOW for sure is TRUE"

I can not relate to that kind of behaviour, but I have seen someone do it. I hope they put it right before they die.

Judas KNEW Christ was the Son of God and look what he did.
280 posted on 07/11/2002 8:44:09 PM PDT by Grig
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