On Islam [Hilaire Belloc]

Catholic-Pages ^ | 1919 | Hilaire Belloc

[JMJ333]

You're welcome!

[BlackVeil]

"I really liked the red wine part ... " I didn't. Sigh. Sorry to be a killjoy, but my father was an alcoholic, and inflicted so much suffering on us. The Catholic community was very tolerant of his drinking - they always are - and blamed us for not being "supportive" enough. I often wonder about the role of alcoholism in these sex scandals which have plagued the Church (and which are IMO, merely a reflection of wider social problems). There is a strong co-relation between substance abuse and sexual abuse, but I don't see anyone mentioning that. Probably, they want to appear "puritanical", like mentioning the link between deviancy (homosexuality) and sexual agression toward youths.

[Catholicguy]

"but my father was an alcoholic"
I'm sorry you had to live through that. I don't think that was what Belloc was referencing. Jesus drank wine as did the Apostles. Jesus was accusd of being a drunk; so was the first Pope - see Peter at Pentecost telling the crowd it isnt even noon yet so how could they be drunk (my own standard is to not get drunk prior to lunch).
I think it true the European countries that Belloc referenced had a lower rate of alcoholism than does puritanical America with its either/or approach. Wine was a regular part of the Mediterranean life - still is - and The "Mediterranean Diet" calls for its wise use for "medical reasons." But, who wants to take the pleasure out of wine by saying "my doctor told me to drink 2 glases a day?"

The Bible both praises and cautions us about the use of wine. Nobody praises alcoholism or sin. Belloc certainly wasn't.
It is too often the case that one either abstains or gets drunk rather than being schooled in how to drink in moderation. I taught my kids at a young age how to drink. They always could have a drink at any time at any age and they went through High Schol without EVER drinking and driving or drinking to intoxication or drinking without us knowing it.
Temperance, in Catholicism, does not mean no alcohol.
It is the virtue that moderates the desire for pleasure. We are not Puritans nor are we Pagans. The wise use of wine IS a delight and Belloc is absolutely correct in sighting its healthy and happy use.

[Cap'n Crunch]

Well said.

[kstewskis]

thanks for Le bump....le PEW!

[sfousa]

No considerable number of conversions to Islam from Christianity is probable...I think it improbable, and even highly improbable, because Islam advances in herd or mob fashion. It does not proceed, as the Catholic religion does, by individual conversions, but by colonisation and group movement.

I love Belloc for his astuteness, wit, and not infrequently, humor. But this essay stopped short of Central Asia. There is one country in the Far East that was herded into Catholicism by violent colonization. The cruelty of Spanish-Mexican colonizers was legendary, but the Philippines stood fast in its newly-found faith. ( The Philippines was an Islam-pagan country before Spain claimed it as colony.)

The irony of it is that nowadays Islam is making great headways into the main population centers and converting large groups of people into Islam. It's a question of economics. It's easier to become a migrant worker in Saudi and Kuwait if one converts into Islam, than - remain Christian and tries to immigrate into the U.S. or Canada or Spain. The economic situation is so bad that everybody it seems wants to leave the country for greener pastures.

But not to lose heart - a great majority of the people (80%) is still Catholic and more staunchly Catholic than ever before. Please pray for the Philippines.

[BlackVeil]

Thanks for your kind reply on the alcohol question. I understand what you are saying, and I agree that wine drinking in Mediterranean nations appears to be a healthy part of the culture. My own antecedents were Irish, a culture with serious alcohol problems, handed on from one generation to the next. Every culture has its own problems, and its own virtues. I do not know why some nations (such as the Russians and the Irish) have so great a problem with alcohol. It may even be genetic. We are products of own enviroment, and, as a reaction to my childhood, I can't stand drinking. Even more, I can't stand the alcoholic lifestyle - the dependency, the abuse, the habit of falsehood. I think this may be the background to some of these clergy who have been disgraceful. Just my thoughts.

[sfousa]

The first victims were six Franciscan friars and twenty of their converts, who were executed at Nagasaki on 5 February 1597.

Thanks, JMJ, for this post. The head of the Franciscans was San Pedro Bautista, OFM, who was the provincial general of the Franciscan mission in the Philippines. He is especially venerated in my hometown (Paete, Laguna, in the Philippines) because he laid out the map for the streets and set its boundaries.

There were at least three groups of Catholic martyrs persecuted in the Japan in the 15th century. The first group of martyrs as you described, was cannonized as "St. Paul Miki and companions" and given a feastday in the liturgical calendar as February 6.

The third (I think) group was composed of Dominican missionaries from Spain and France, along with Japanese native converts, and the Philippines' one (and so far, only) cannonized saint, San Lorenzo Ruiz, a married man, who served as sacristan. They were martyred between 1633 and 1637 at Nagasaki by decree of the emperor Tokugawa Yemitsu. San Lorenzo Ruiz and companions were cannonized - oh, maybe, 15 years ago by Pope JPII. Their feastday is September 28.

[sfousa]

Re #48

The first victims were six Franciscan friars and twenty of their converts, who were executed at Nagasaki on 5 February 1597.

Correction: Thanks, NYer, for this post...

Sorry.:)

[NYer]

(See my personal page)

However, when Japan was re-opened to Western contacts 250 years later, it was found that a community of Japanese Christians had survived underground, without clergy, without Scriptures, with only very sketchy instructions in the doctrines of the faith, but with a firm commitment to Jesus as Lord.

This is a powerful witness to the depth and strength of faith implanted by the Franciscans in that community. Imagine ... 250 years WITHOUT clergy or communion.

[JMJ333]

Absolutely, I 'll pray for the Phillipnies! 80% Catholic is a beautiful thing!

Our Lady of Piat, watch of the blessed children on the Phillipines and let us, here in America, emmulate their gentle piety!

[JMJ333]

eek...I slaughtered my prayer! Not even a spell checker would've helped me. lol

It should have read...

watch over the blessed children in the Phillipines and let us, here in America, emmulate their gentle piety!

[independentmind]

Fair warning: The last time this was posted on FR, was pulled by the moderator.

[sfousa]

This is a powerful witness to the depth and strength of faith implanted by the Franciscans in that community. Imagine ... 250 years WITHOUT clergy or communion.

Awesome how the Holy Spirit sustained them. I also read from (or probably heard in a sermon) by Fr. George Rutler that after 250 years, when western missionaries came upon this faithful group, the first questions they asked the missionaries were: (1) Are you in communion with the Pope? (2) Do you believe in the Real Presence of the Holy Eucharist? (3) Do you venerate the Blessed Virgin Mary? (4) Are your priests celibate?

If what Fr. Rutler says is true (and I have no reason not to think otherwise), then this particular group of Japanese faithful must indeed be demonstrating heroic faith! The seed of the blood of the martyrs have truly sprung out of arid land and bears much fruit.

I am thrilled to bits to see your personal page. You'll never know how much it delights me, a Secular Franciscan. ;)

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister, Mother Earth who sustains and governs us, producing varied fruits with coloured flowers and herbs.

And I am happy to read from your page the authentic verse in the "Canticle of the Sun" about "our Sister, Mother Earth," where St. Francis emphasized that the earth is "our sister" i.e., one of God's creations. Some liberals have all but erased the word "sister," thus selling out to radical environmentalists and feminist earth-worshippers who often misquote St. Francis for their own purposes.

Pax et bonum to you, too.

[sfousa]

Our Lady of Piat, watch of the blessed children on the Phillipines and let us, here in America, emmulate their gentle piety!

Thank you, JMJ. Your prayer is sure to touch Our Savior's Heart.

Although Our Lady of Piat's apparition is not yet approved by the Bishops, I'm sure Our Blessed Mother is smiling at you for your great act of charity. I am not sure what "Piat" means, whether it's the name of the town where the reported apparition took place, or the name that the apparition herself revealed.

My guess is that "Piat" means "Fiat", referring to Mary's consent to become the Mother of God. Uh...the Philippine alphabet does contain the letters F and V, same with the "th" and "ch" sounds, so people just automatically say "p" in place of "f." Lol. Punny dat deyr kountri's neym istarts wid de f-sound. So, "Pilipins" instead of Philippines ;).

[JMJ333]

I know you're not Catholic, but aside from his comments on the subject there is insight about our culture that can be applied to that thread. He was prohetically right.

[JMJ333]

I know you're not Catholic, but aside from his comments on the subject there is insight about our culture that can be applied to that thread. He was prohetically right.

[JMJ333]

Sorry, I forgot to change the name before I posted to dakmar. My apologies!