Posted on 06/14/2002 7:52:48 AM PDT by Matchett-PI
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2 Nephi 5: 21-22
And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be centicing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them. And thus saith the Lord God: I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.
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Maybe the peep stone got a little foggy in translating this from those Gold Tablets.
I am convinced you have a reading comprehension problem, since I said nothing like that at all.
You evidently believe there is no difference whatsoever between those who are saved and those who are not. Is that correct? If this is not correct, please tell us what difference there will be in those who are saved from those who are not.
Hank
Definitions of the word "act" mean to make the effort to produce an effect: "work". To "engage in the process of doing something". To "take action".
Matchett-PI, I am sure you do not really mean to imply you don't know the difference between a physical act, and the abstract use of the word when applied to cognitive or intellectual events. We also speak of people being in "deep thought" but know thought is not measure in inches of depth, and it not something you can get in and out of. The use of the work "act" with regard to any mental or intellectual process, such as choosing, is purely metaphorical. Any child knows that.
The Bible clearly distinguishes between "works" which are always overt physical actions, and faith, choice, and the heart, etc. which are all mental or intellectual processes. You have simply confused a metaphors with the material entitieis they are based on.
Now I have a couple of very simple question for you, if you are courageous enough to answer them. Is it possible to be saved without repentance and faith? Do you also consider faith, work? How about repentance?
Hank
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Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? When we view its face we may see what is termed "the man in the moon," and what some philosophers declare are the shadows of mountains. But these sayings are very vague, and amount to nothing; and when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain. It was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in its first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celestialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then. Christ is the light of this planet. God gives light to our eyes. Did you ever think who gave you the power of seeing? who organized these little globules in our heads, and formed the nerves running to the brain, and gave us the power of distinguishing a circle from a square, an upright from a level, large from small, white from black, brown from gray, and so on? Did you acquire this faculty by your own power? Did any of you impart this power to me or I to you? Not at all. Then where did we get it from? From a superior Being. When I think of these few little things with regard to the organization of the earth and the people of the earth, how curious and how singular it is! And yet how harmonious and beautiful are Nature's laws! -- Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses
Stick to debate, not insults. We could (and some have) made the same accusations of your position. At the end of the day, where does it get us? You will never win someone to your side by insulting or belittling them.
The goal is to impress lurkers with their "cleverness," not to win over their "opponents" with a reasoned defense.
Does God have the perogative as the self-proclaimed, "master potter", to make out of the same lump of clay (all of mankind) some individuals for noble purposes, and some for common use as he says in Romans 9:21? Or do you think he doesn't claim that perogative over all peoples?
It's a simple yes or no answer.
You didn't? Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else. Help me out here, please. Answer this question, then ONLY with a yes or a no:
Does God have the perogative as the self-proclaimed, "master potter", to make out of the same lump of clay (all of mankind) some individuals for noble purposes, and some for common use as he says in Romans 9:21? Or do you think he doesn't claim that perogative over all peoples?
So I guess God was wrong when he equated the lust of a married man for a woman not his wife as "the actual act of adultry"?
Are you really that confused, or are you deliberately suppressing Truth?
That's another simple yes or no answer. :D
"Is it possible to be saved without repentance and faith? Do you also consider faith, work? How about repentance?"
Your question was prefaced like this: "Answer this question, then ONLY with a yes or a no:"
You aksed: "Does God have the perogative as the self-proclaimed, "master potter", to make out of the same lump of clay (all of mankind) some individuals for noble purposes, and some for common use as he says in Romans 9:21? Or do you think he doesn't claim that perogative over all peoples?"
My answer, per your instructions: Yes!
(Don't see how that's going to help you since you really asked two questions, but insisted on only a "yes" or "no" answer. Of course you know my answer means God either does have the stated perogative or he does not claim it. My answer does not indicate which, according to your instructions.)
Now, I have complied with your request exactly, even though I know you will not be happy with the results. I hope you will be gracious enough to answer my questions, any way you wish.
I don't want to be unfair. I think you made an error in the way you worded your question, and I know exactly what you are really getting at. I was just having a little fun with your somewhat heavy-handed "answer only with a yes or no."
Of course God has the power and right to do whatever He wishes with what He creates, and since He has created everything, He may do whatever He chooses with anything. We have no disagreement about that. We only disagree with how He has chosen to do what He does. It is clear from the Scriptures that His method of choosing the kind of vessels to make is not according to Calvin's teaching, but according to the truth.
Psalms 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
There are no conradictions in truth, but there are many in Calvinism, and between Cavlinsim and the Scriptures. (Don't get upset, this is my opinion. I post here to present my views, as you do yours. I'm not your enemy, I just disagree with you.)
Hank
Then you said, "So I guess God was wrong when he equated the lust of a married man for a woman not his wife as 'the actual act of adultry'"?
But Jesus was very careful not to make the confusion you accuse him of. He does not say that looking upon a woman to lust after her is the equivalent of committing adultery (that is, actually having sex), but of being guilty of it in his heart (a mental or intellectual condition). Here's the quote:
Mat. 5:28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
But all this does not matter, since the question is, does the Bible ever call anything a work, in the sense of "good works" done to earn salvation except, actual physical works or actions? The answer is, it does not.
Hank
How about a yes and no?
Save your idiotic 'yes or no' questions for the children at Sunday school!
I did not belittle anyone I mocked the system which is nonBiblical.
No, my friend, I think the goal is to win over lurkers with a clear presentation of the Truth and show the faults of the arguments of the disingenuous. When your 'opponents' demonstrate that they have closed their respective minds years ago, it makes little sense to expect them to react to reason.
Amazingly, some of your co-religionists have hurled some of their most incongruous epithets (i.e. 'fatal heretic') because I announced I would -- get ready -- read a book. Now, for people of that genre, to expect them to say, 'you know, I've never thought of it that way before' is naive.
I didn't use the term, BTW. I don't think you're a fatal heretic. I think you will have the joy of spending eternity praising God along with John Calvin among a myriad of others.
I have probably read as many books that present theology with which I disagree as those whose views I hold. I was the one who pointed you to Open Theism and Greg Boyd. I poinsted Grammar to Finney's Systematic Theology. In both cases I thought you might enjoy the works of your kindred spirits.
You responded: "... I know exactly what you are really getting at. ... My answer..: Yes!"
Thank you.
In part #2, I asked: "Do you think he doesn't claim that perogative over all peoples?" Yes or no?
You responded: "Of course God has the power and right to do whatever He wishes with what He creates, and since He has created everything, He may do whatever He chooses with anything..."
That wasn't a yes or no answer. Please reply with a simple yes or no to part #2 of the question.
You were indeed. And I have read the contra views of John Piper in your honor.
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