Replies

I, too, have begun to move away from dispensationalism as a method of Biblical interpretation. It is very hard though, because in my brief Christian life it is all I have been taught, though not under that term.

I too remain a strong proponent of Israel.

I have a comment, and please feel free to critique. Was not the covenant with Israel that God would scatter tham when they are disobedient, but bring them back together if they repent and renew the covenant?

So are dispensationalists claiming that ethnic Israel repented of their sins in 1948 when they were made a physical, political nation by the UN? This is impossible, because the basis of repentance is faith in Christ, and the Jewish nation has as yet offerend no such repentance as a whole.

So how could the establishment of Israel be a prophetic event? Perhaps a someone who holds to dispensationalism could answer.

You wrote, emphasis mine: > I have a comment, and please feel free to critique. Was not the covenant with Israel that God would scatter tham when they are disobedient, but bring them back together if they repent and renew the covenant?

> So are dispensationalists claiming that ethnic Israel repented of their sins in 1948 when they were made a physical, political nation by the UN? This is impossible, because the basis of repentance is faith in Christ, and the Jewish nation has as yet offerend no such repentance as a whole

> So how could the establishment of Israel be a prophetic event?

Your entire argument hinges on your statement in bold type above. Let me turn that around and put it to you that your Messiah is identified in John chapter 1 as the Word made flesh. Now, if it pleased G-d to hide his identity from them for a time, might not He also have hidden from you how Israel gets saved? You might like to pray about that and see if light dawns in your understanding. Hint: read Romans chapter 11.

So how could the establishment of Israel be a prophetic event? Perhaps a someone who holds to dispensationalism could answer.

(A) Israel rebels against God over quite a period and ends up tossing their Messiah aside.

(B) Jesus Himself notes they will be scattered and then recalled, drawn, moved back to THEIR LAND wholesale. And then in Revelations, we read of 144,000 being singled out as very called missionaries to the world. . . and perhaps saved compared to others not [cheeky aside . . . I wonder, are Replacement theologians closet Jehovah's Witnesses? Perhaps only their very successful Exlax sellers know for sure].

(C) in 1948 they become a NATION again in A DAY literally as Scripture predicted by an act of the UN with the miracle of Russia agreeing. Thusly, the return migration BEGAN. It is continuing. New York still has plenty who have not migrated.

What happens if NY is nuked and the AntiChrist or some preliminary effort sets up some sort of seeming peace in the MIDEAST. . . and some sort of seeming relative economic benefit occurs vis a vis EU and the MidEast compared to declining America? I suspect more Israeli's would migrate to Israel.

(D) At SOME point God's dramatic supernatural interventions; His Spirit's wooing of them; Public demonstrations of His protection and provision against all odds and all other world forces convinces the thick-headed Israeli's that He alone is Their God; Their Messiah.

(E) Voila--they have then come home. . . spiritually as well as physically. . . I don't see what's so complicated about it. I don't see what's so hard about seeing it plainly in plain Scriptures put multiple ways in a diversity of places in the Old Testament as well as New Testament. It really doesn't take a rocket scientist as much as it takes Child-like faith and confidence that God says what He means and means what He says.

Sure, there are some mysteries about all of the above. But the plain outline is plenty plain. The major data points are rather clearly laid out. The key issues are clear ENOUGH.

Sure, people can choke on gnats and swallow deserts full of camels until Jesus comes but it won't change what He's said. It won't change what He IS DOING and WILL DO.

(F) I've chewed on this sort of Biblical/Scriptural discussion over different issues within and without my own denominational background (A of G; So Bap; Episcopal and non-denominational as well as International Community. and I've had close association with the very rigid and extremely narrow Wisc. Evangelical Lutheran Synod--WELS). As I was pondering all such and quering Father about so much hard heartedness and seeming blindness, close mindedness--I was asking him where it all came from, what sort of spiritual problem; Biblical misunderstanding or whatever caused most of it.

His response sort of startled me. He jokingly chided me about what had He given me a PhD in clinical psychology for if I wasn't going to use it. He then pointed out that the most fierce proponents in all the cases that I recalled in ALL the groups--I WANT TO EMPHASIZE THAT THIS PHENOMENON SEEMS TO HAVE NO BOUNDARIES RELATED TO PARTICULAR BELIEFS DENOMINATIONALLY--AND CAN EVEN BE OBSERVED IN THE SAME CONGREGATION THAT'S OLDER THAN SAY A YEAR AND A HALF.

The most fierce proponents of the more narrow, rigid, carefully picked proof-text sorts of arguments (as opposed to the whole balance of the whole of the Word of God) were ALL insecure types with strong needs to control and strong needs to have a philosophy of life and even to have a God who would fit in THEIR tidy little boxes. As well, there was usually a fair amount of common fleshy pride in uncommonly huge proportions--usually trying vainly to hide under white robes.

He further pointed out that at it's root, it was at best a lack of trusting Him and at it's worst a rebellion against trusting Him akin to that of the Pharisees. . . and that HE GOD, had even knocked the sides of boxes out that HE HIMSELF HAD CONSTRUCTED IN THE OLD TESTAMENT. . . that He doesn't fit boxes well and never will.

I REALLY do NOT know how much of the above applies in this disucssion but some familiar tones and attitudes do seem to have appeared fairly early in the presented documents. Such things are often more evident in nuance than in plainly in one's face. And certainly nuance can be misperceived. But I think there's room for sobering reflection and pondering.

So how could the establishment of Israel be a prophetic event? Perhaps a someone who holds to dispensationalism could answer.

My understanding of the significance is not so much that the re-establishment of the nation in 1948 is itself prophetic as that it makes it possible for their interpretation of God's dealing with Israel at the end of the age possible. For the same reason, you'll see dispensationlists go crazy every time an Israeli group sets a date to lay the cornerstone for rebuilding the Temple.

I haven't completely discounted all aspects of the dispensationlist view, but I can't say as I really hold fast to the whole construct. My thought is that if you're truly living and acting the way you're supposed to (meaning involved in your sanctification) it doesn't matter. Whether there's a pre- mid- or post-trib rapture, or none at all, I'm ready for it. If I must suffer and perhaps die for my faith, so be it. If I live out the rest of my life without ever seeing the end times, so be it. To live is Christ, to die is gain. It's always interesting to study and discuss interpretation of the end times, but it's become WAY to divisive recently and there's way too much focus on it. I know too many people that could draw you a diagram and timeline of the whole dispensationlist end times view, but they couldn't name all twelve Disciples.

So how could the establishment of Israel be a prophetic event? Perhaps a someone who holds to dispensationalism could answer.

There is a great amount of confusion on what dispensationalism is. It is a method of Bible study, as you indicate, but it is much more than understanding pre-mil eschatology.

Regarding your question, dispensationalists do not hold that the establishment of Israel in 1948 is the fulfillment of prophecy. Weird-o's like Van Impe and that ilk have deceived people by distorting prophecy to fit their view of the end times. They profit from it, rather than provide clear Biblical teachings. A true dispensationalist would say that while these men might be scriptural, they are not dispensational.

The regathering of Israel and the re-birthing of the Nation of Israel is yet future. It will occur when Christ returns to earth at His second advent. The regathering and the re-birthing will be a supernatural act of God, not something done by man, and it will occur in a day (Isa. 66:8). As I said in another post, modern Israel could disappear from the face of the earth, but God will, according to His time schedule, accomplish this which will fulfill His covenant with Israel. BTW, this is when the New Covenant becomes effective for Israel, resulting in them being spiritually fit to be the blessing to all people per Gen. 12:2-3, which is a key provision of the Abrahamic Covenant.