Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

How I Changed My Mind About Mary
e3mil.com ^ | 5/6/02 | Mark Shea

Posted on 05/05/2002 11:30:36 PM PDT by nickcarraway

by Mark Shea

How I Changed My Mind About Mary

5/6/02

It once seemed perfectly obvious to me that Catholics honored Mary too much. All those feasts, rosaries, icons, statues and whatnot were ridiculously excessive. Yes, the gospel of Luke said something about her being "blessed" and yes I thought her a good person. But that was that.

No Mary, No Salvation

People who celebrated her or called her "Mother" or did all the million things which Catholic piety encourages bordered on idolatry. It was all too much. Jesus, after all, is our Savior, not Mary.

However, after looking at the gospel of Luke afresh and thinking more and more about the humanity of Jesus Christ, some things dawned on me. For it turns out that Luke said more than "something" about Mary. He reports that God was conceived in her womb and thereby made a son of Adam! This means more than merely saying that Mary was an incubator unit for the Incarnation. It means that the Logos, the Second Person of the Trinity derives his humanity--all of it--from her! Why does this matter? Because the entire reason we are able to call Jesus "savior" at all is because the God who cannot die became a man who could die. And he chose to do it through Mary's free "yes" to him. No Mary, no human nature for Christ. No human nature for Christ, no death on the cross. No death, no resurrection. No resurrection, no salvation. Without Mary, we are still in our sins.

Too Much vs. Just Enough

This made me see Mary very differently. The Incarnation is vastly more than God zipping on a disposable man-suit. He remains man eternally. Therefore, his joining with the human race through the womb of Mary means (since he is the savior of us all), that she is the mother of us all (John 19:27). Moreover, it means that her remarkable choice to say "Yes" to the Incarnation was not merely a one-time incident, it was an offering of her own heart to God and us. Her heart was pierced by the sword that opened the fountain of blood and water in Christ's human heart, for it was she who, by the grace of God, gave him that heart (Luke 2:35; John 19:34).

Seeing this, I began to wonder again: If Catholics honor Mary "too much", where did we Evangelicals honor her "just enough." Mary herself said "henceforth, all generations will call me blessed." When was the last time I had heard a contemporary Christian tune on the radio sung in honor of Mary? Or a prayer in church to extol her? How about a teensy weensy bit of verse or a little article in some magazine singling out Mary as blessed among women? Aside from "Silent Night" was there anything in Evangelical piety which dared to praise her for even a moment? I was an Evangelical for seven years and I never saw so much as a dram of it.

St. Luke? Is That You?</>

So the question became for me, "How could we talk about something being 'excessive' when we had virtually no experience of it ourselves?" What if it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our horror of Marian piety and Catholics who are normal? Judging from the witness of the early Fathers and even of Martin Luther (who had a very robust Marian devotion and whose tomb is decorated with an illustration of the Assumption of the Virgin into Heaven) it seemed to me that it was we Evangelicals who were excessive in our fear of her rather than Catholics who were excessive in their devotion.

"Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee. Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen."

There. That didn't hurt a bit. In fact, I think I heard St. Luke pray it too!


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140 ... 321-329 next last
To: RnMomof7; drstevej; Gophack
Swapping ideas and Greek. These folks have generally discussed pretty congenially with me.
101 posted on 05/07/2002 6:24:32 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]

To: drstevej; rnmomof7; gophack; corin stormhands
plnrns xaritos: just as I thought. The Greek would render it as a combination of "full" and of "grace." Is there an alternate reading that has "plnrns xaritos" in the Luke 1:28 passage? (I don't have my text with me...it's still in shipment from Oklahoma...I recently moved.)

As you say, though, if that "plevnw" language were to result in Mary being "immaculately conceived," then it would also have to apply to the Saint Stephen.

What we have, then, is what I orignally stated: the only argument for the "immaculate conception" is a logically derived one. That is, pre-incarnate Jesus, knowing Mary was to be his mother, saw fit to give her the gift of perfection for His benefit and for the removal from him of "original sin," a doctrine that is itself suspect.

102 posted on 05/07/2002 6:36:44 PM PDT by xzins
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 100 | View Replies]

To: xzins;drstevej
Yea I had a nice conversation with my former faith family on this topic too.But the reality is that tradition and doctrine are not easily changed..Today someone that is not RC sent me The Memorare to ask me how one can not see that as praying TO Mary...It was funny I told him ,I still know that prayer by heart and can repeat it word for word..so deep is the training of Catholic children ..it is an act of God to understand the true spiritual nature of it xzins.....
103 posted on 05/07/2002 6:41:08 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 101 | View Replies]

To: xzins
My greek text is also not with me. In my software the word is from karitow (vocative, 2nd person singular, past perfect participle) to favor highly, to have shown grace to [Liddell & Scott Lexicon]; to show kindness to [Louw & Nida Lexicon].
104 posted on 05/07/2002 6:49:11 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: goldenstategirl
Mary could have said no??? How praytell could she have done that? Self-aborted?
105 posted on 05/07/2002 7:06:31 PM PDT by Wrigley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Wrigley
She would not have become pregnant if she had not consented to carry the Christ child. It was her choice (read free will) to submit to God's design. God is not a rapist.

Mary said, "I am the servant of the Lord. Let it be done unto me according to thy word." With that the angel left her.

106 posted on 05/07/2002 7:51:21 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: goldenstategirl;Wrigley
She would not have become pregnant if she had not consented to carry the Christ child. It was her choice (read free will) to submit to God's design. God is not a rapist.

Just as all of us that have met the grace of God personally...she desired God...she chose what is natural to one that sees God..go back into the OT and read what happened EVERY time man met God..He said here I am Lord. That goldie is the effect of God's grace...:>))

107 posted on 05/07/2002 8:01:05 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
Mom, I wouldn't disagree with that one bit. We are completely on the same page in regards to that.
108 posted on 05/07/2002 8:05:44 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 107 | View Replies]

To: goldenstategirl
twice in one week,..a record *grin*
109 posted on 05/07/2002 8:07:00 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 108 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
You're reading my mind tonight. I was just thinking about you the first time you posted just now...LOL..
110 posted on 05/07/2002 8:09:13 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: Right_Wing_Mole_In_Seattle
It is what is in your heart that matters. I know you guys, you want to nit pick us to death with accusations and your own misunderstandings. I've heard the arguments more than I ever wanted to and we'll have to agree to disagree. When God wants you to know the whole truth, you will, whether it is in this life or the next.
111 posted on 05/07/2002 9:25:20 PM PDT by tiki
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: goldenstategirl
Last I looked in the Bible it said "You will" not "Will you?"
112 posted on 05/08/2002 4:43:42 AM PDT by Wrigley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: Wrigley
I think in parsing words and examining speech patterns no point is proved. Word usage varies from translation to translation. The point is this: God gave each and every one of us free will. Like Mary, at any given moment we can say yes or no to God. Like Mary, we can choose to be vessels of God's grace and salvation (although in her situation it manifested in His physical being).

When we are full of God's grace, as the devout Jewish girl Mary was, then we submit to God's will more fully. Yet to say that none of us have a choice in the matter takes this discussion to an entirely different place. It becomes an issue of the nature of God Himself.

113 posted on 05/08/2002 12:02:30 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 112 | View Replies]

To: Gophack
The immaculate conception of which you speak has no biblical basis and is the creation of man ..yes I know you will disagree.. oh well.
114 posted on 05/08/2002 6:21:45 PM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
You make mention of Calvin AND Luther.. as being in agreement regarding Mary.. see the difference between what I believe and what you believe can be explained in this way, I don't care what either MAN believes or believed or taught for that matter FOR if it is in contridiction to scripture then they were dead wrong.
115 posted on 05/08/2002 6:26:25 PM PDT by Zipporah
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: goldenstategirl
Parsing of words? How can you say that? You brought it up, so show me the different translations have it different. I have read them and I don't see where God gave Mary a choice.

Luke 1:31 "You will..." NIV Luke 1:31 "And, behold, thou shalt conceive..." KJV

116 posted on 05/08/2002 7:15:25 PM PDT by Wrigley
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: goldenstategirl
His point is that Mary said "Yes" to God

goldenstategirl, I like you but that was a little too much for me to kid about!

117 posted on 05/10/2002 5:48:42 PM PDT by restornu
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: nickcarraway
"Are you aware, for example, that Martin Luther had the Assumption of Mary put on his tomb?"

=====

Bogus! see... Martin Luther's Tomb / Epitaph for Henning Goeden

Henceforth desist in posting this disinformation. A retraction is in order too in the name of intellectual honesty.

118 posted on 05/10/2002 5:55:14 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 70 | View Replies]

To: RnMomof7
Bump to RnMom for a great link. Post #118
119 posted on 05/10/2002 8:02:54 PM PDT by drstevej
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 118 | View Replies]

To: drstevej; xzins
What does full of grace mean in these two verses that makes sense to say of BOTH Stephen and Jesus?

I'm glad you brought this up. Look at the whole quote here:

Acts 6:8 And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.

However you posted it this way:

And Stephen, full of grace and power, wrought great wonders and signs among the people.

Grace and power is not Grace.

(Sorry about the delay. I was busy and coouldn't get back here until now)

Plus, one was the message of God delivered by the Angel Gabriel.

120 posted on 07/03/2002 12:59:06 PM PDT by nickcarraway
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 96 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 81-100101-120121-140 ... 321-329 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson