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"He's describing the general state of mankind, not establishing that we are incapable of submitting our will to God."

Once again: Huh?

(BTW, Paul is quoting from Psalm 14, which is an indictment of sinners, present company included. Whether you read from the Septuagint or the Masoretic text, this fact is clear.)

What is there that resides within your sinful flesh that would ever want to submit to God? The whole point of Romans 1-3 is the fact that all of us stand guilty before God, and that we are totally undone in our sin. If you continue reading in Romans you discover that we are saved only because of the direct intervention of God into our pathetic sinful lives. Paul also shows us the ongoing battle between the work of the Spirit and the flesh in which we still reside in chapter seven. Even after regeneration we still have this struggle due to the wickedness of our flesh.

Let me ask you this: Why are you so determined that it is you who has submitted yourself to God? Why not concede that this is the result of the working of His Holy Spirit within you, and that this would have never taken place without the application of His grace?

A portion of my notes for Bible study tonight:

Proverbs 6

¹² A naughty person, a wicked man, walketh with a froward mouth.
¹³ He winketh with his eyes, he speaketh with his feet, he teacheth with his fingers;
¹⁴ Frowardness is in his heart, he deviseth mischief continually; he soweth discord.
¹⁵ Therefore shall his calamity come suddenly; suddenly shall he be broken without remedy.

This naughty person is a man of Belial. He is a "worthless" person. This word occurs 27 times in the OT. It is what is being described in Psalm 101:

Psa 101:3 I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; [it] shall not cleave to me.
He walks with a forward mouth in direct opposition to God in his perversity. His whole body eyes, feet, and hands all speak perversity. Perversity is in his heart and he sows discord for out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh.
He that devises mischief shall fall into mischief. Without warning his ruin will come and he will be broken without remedy.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
And we were all men of Satan before our conversion to the Light.

Rom 3:9-18,23 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written,

There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
Whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
Their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
Destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
And the way of peace have they not known:
There is no fear of God before their eyes....

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Tit 3:3-7 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Let me ask you this: Why are you so determined that it is you who has submitted yourself to God? Why not concede that this is the result of the working of His Holy Spirit within you, and that this would have never taken place without the application of His grace?

It is absolutely true that we would not be saved except by the grace of God. No question. What I am disputing is that God forces anyone to accept his grace. He does not.

By freely submitting our will to God we allow God to wrought the changes in us.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands, as to the Lord.

Jam 4:7 Therefore submit yourselves to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.

What is there that resides within your sinful flesh that would ever want to submit to God?

There is nothing in the Bible that demands us to want to submit to God, only that we submit. The idea of choice is always being able to do what one does not want to do when one knows it is right to do. Of course if they do not know it is right to do, they are not required to do it.

Why do Calvinists keep confusing "desire" and "choice" or volition. (A partial answer is the weasel phrase, "free will" which they have shoved down the throats of the gullible. The expression is almost meaningless and has nothing to do with moral choice.)

Hank