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God So Loved The World
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_52.html ^ | 5/3/02 | Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema

Posted on 05/04/2002 4:43:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7

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To: DouglasKC
Let me say this one more time. God doesn't compel obedience. We are free to accept or reject God. God knew Adam and Eve were going to sin. He let them sin because he people are free to accept or reject him. He could have changed everything. He could have created people so that they would never reject him. But that's not love having children, that's making pets

Doug why did God make you? And could God have made you differently IF he chose?

301 posted on 05/08/2002 8:16:01 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: douglaskc
He let them sin because he people are free to accept or reject him. He could have changed everything. He could have created people so that they would never reject him. But that's not love having children, that's making pets

Clearly - but lets not go to there

302 posted on 05/08/2002 8:33:36 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: Revelation 911;Corin Stormhands;RnMomof7;CCWoody
...that's making pets

Like....uh...(ready?).....dogs?

:)

303 posted on 05/08/2002 8:36:20 AM PDT by ShadowAce
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To: ShadowAce; Revelation 911; RnMomof7; CCWoody
Bad Shadow. Three whacks with a newspaper for you.
304 posted on 05/08/2002 8:45:50 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: ShadowAce
Why did God make man Shadow?
305 posted on 05/08/2002 8:47:14 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Corin Stormhands
Corin Why did God make man? Why did God make YOU ?
306 posted on 05/08/2002 8:48:20 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: CCWoody
No one seems to know the gospel..lets see if anyone knows why God made them?
307 posted on 05/08/2002 8:49:02 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
The answer you want to hear is to glorify God. My answer includes that, but doesn't stop there. Not only to glorify God, but to provide Him with beings who love him of their own decision, to provide companionship. Beings created and then forced to glorify him are no more than computer programs--not companions.

And before anyone takes my words out of context--no, I do not mean we shall be as God, or as gods, or however else you may put it.

308 posted on 05/08/2002 8:56:00 AM PDT by ShadowAce
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To: drstevej; Jerry_M; xzins; fortheDeclaration; ShadowAce; zshhh; Revelation 911; P-Marlowe
The question is how should we be civil to one another and when is rebuke appropriate?

That is a very important question for the assembled debaters at FR. When is it appropriate for a Christian to 'rebuke' a fellow believer? (A believer here being defined as one who believes in Christ for his salvation)

First, a 'rebuke' is a personal criticism of another. A rebuke is not merely a criticism of some idea, concept or construct. It is the personal nature of the criticism that raises an ideological criticism to the level of a "rebuke". So when is this elevation appropriate?

Epitimao is used approximately 30 times in the NT. In the vast majority of those instances, Christ is doing the rebuking. Interestingly, in all but three instances where other than Jesus is doing the 'rebuking, those doing the 'rebuking' are corrected by Christ for doing so inappropriately and in one of those three instances (Jude 1:9) the angel Michael is quoted as requesting the Lord to do the 'rebuking'. We are left with only two instances in the NT where believers are enjoined to 'rebuke' others: 2 Tim 4:2 and Luke 17:3.

In 2 Tim 4:2, Paul tells Timothy that he should "... be ready whether it is convenient or not, [to] reprove, rebuke, exhort with complete patience and instruction." While Paul does not indicate directly what should occasion the 'rebuke', but he does expressly qualify that it should be done only "...with complete patience and instruction."

But Jesus is not ambiguous, in Luke 17 He tells us that we should 'rebuke' a brother when he sins: "...Watch yourselves! If your brother sins, rebuke him. If he repents, forgive him. Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to you saying, 'I repent,' you must forgive him." Moreover, the contextual implication is that the 'rebuke' is authorized only when the sin is "against you".

Thus, I think the Bible teaches that while Jesus has, of course, all power and authority to 'rebuke', we have only delegated authority to 'rebuke' other believers and we should do so only "with complete patience" and, more importantly, only when the brother has sinned and arguably only when he has sinned "against [us]".

Now, the significance of this to FR is that this does NOT extend to 'rebuking' someone because he does not accede to our understanding of Biblical doctrine. Failure to agree with our ideas, concepts, constructs,etc does not have Biblical warrant for a 'rebuke'. "Rebukes" of a fellow believer are retricted to a specific sin.

I realize that many of your colleagues have so internalized the Calvinist construct that they cannot see that it is a attempt at a systematic understanding of the Bible, but it is not the Bible itself. Thus, it is never appropriate to 'rebuke' a fellow believer for failing to accede to our view of Scriptural teaching unless that disagreement has led the brother to a specific Scripturally-designated sin (i.e. we cannot define any disagreement with us as a "sin" for this purpose). As indicated, I would go further (based on Luke 17) and say that we only have delegated authority to rebuke a fellow believer when the sin is "against [us]".

But, in any event, there is no Scriptural authority to 'rebuke' fellow believers for failing to agree with us on our take on Biblical doctrine. Nothing is less atrractive in a Christian that the high-handed presumption that we have the authority to speak for the Lord and 'rebuke' others on doctrine. Perhaps in such an instance, Michael's formulation is best: "May the Lord rebuke you."

Your thoughts and comments?

309 posted on 05/08/2002 9:01:56 AM PDT by winstonchurchill
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To: ShadowAce;corin stormhands
Bad, bad ! ugly dog -


310 posted on 05/08/2002 9:03:34 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: RnMomof7; CCWoody; P-Marlowe; Revelation 911; winstonchurchill; fortheDeclaration; zshhh; xzins...
No one seems to know the gospel..

To the contrary, we've shared it on may occasions only to have you say "that isn't the gospel."

So, enlighten us. Tell us the "five words," (which we already know BTW).

Then we'll tell you what you're leaving out.

311 posted on 05/08/2002 9:11:10 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: RnMomof7;winstonchurchill;corin stormhands
No one seems to know the gospel..lets see if anyone knows why God made them?

Oh please ma, more often than not, your questions are phrased in a manner that will allow you the room to "charitably rebuke". Rather, what they "know" is to avoid engaging you in such odd little tests in where our complete biblical understanding as you see it hinges on two or three "key" words.

Didnt woody play this game yesterday?

312 posted on 05/08/2002 9:11:40 AM PDT by Revelation 911
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To: ShadowAce;Jerry_M;OrthodoxPresbyterian.CCWoody;the_doc;Matchett-PI;dittoJed2;Jean Chauvin...
The answer you want to hear is to glorify God. My answer includes that, but doesn't stop there. Not only to glorify God, but to provide Him with beings who love him of their own decision, to provide companionship. Beings created and then forced to glorify him are no more than computer programs--not companions.

You do know the correct answer but it sticks in your throat...you just can not accept say it . You can not say that God is an end in Himself..that He does not need YOU..that my friend is the reason that Calvinists say Arminianism is the lie of Eden. It is a lie that must be told to get people to the altar...God NEEDS you...Choose Him PLEASE He is beging you for your approval

God was for all eternity past complete unto Himself..Show me a scripture that says God needs man?

313 posted on 05/08/2002 9:20:15 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Where did I say that God needs man?
314 posted on 05/08/2002 9:22:07 AM PDT by ShadowAce
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To: Revelation 911
Rev 22:15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
315 posted on 05/08/2002 9:22:58 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; ShadowAce; xzins; Revelation 911; winstonchurchill; fortheDeclaration; zshhh; P-Marlowe
Show me a scripture that says God needs man?

It's not what God needs. It's what He wants.

As a "Mom of 7" you never told your kids that their wants and their needs were different?

316 posted on 05/08/2002 9:24:34 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands
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To: Corin Stormhands; RnMomof7
So, enlighten us. Tell us the "five words," (which we already know BTW).

Well, ya' hide 'em well! Should I start calling you a camo-Christian?

317 posted on 05/08/2002 9:24:56 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: ShadowAce
. My answer includes that, but doesn't stop there. Not only to glorify God, but to provide Him with beings who love him of their own decision, to provide companionship.

God is Love. The Triune God was not ever "alone".He is all in all!

He had already created angels that could offer love and companionship IF that was what he wanted.....

Why did God make man?

318 posted on 05/08/2002 9:26:12 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Corin Stormhands
Why did God make you ? Why did God make man?
319 posted on 05/08/2002 9:27:48 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7; Jerry_M; drstevej
I do notice how shadow trumps glory with love. I wonder how many verses say that God created man to love Him vs. how many scriptures say that God created man to Glorify Him.
320 posted on 05/08/2002 9:27:57 AM PDT by CCWoody
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