God So Loved The World

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_52.html ^ | 5/3/02 | Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema

[irishtenor]

Yes and no. At some point we have to say "I choose to follow your will, not my will God." God can sit there all day and night drawing us toward him, but as long as we resist, we resist. We need to give up self-determination and submit to God. At that point, God can begin to work his work in us.

Sounds to me like YOU have the power, God doesn't have enough power to break your resistance. Think it through again. Do you have power over God?

[irishtenor]

But there's a difference between being called and being chosen. Many are called, but few are chosen. Those chosen are the ones who heed the calling.

It doesn't say "many are called and few chose" it says chosen. The choice is by the one that makes the call.

[irishtenor]

I agree with the solid rebuke, but there is no reason to be obnoxious about it (as some are in the habit of doing, on both sides). Jesus responded to the devil with scripture, the devil had no answer. Rebuke YES, belittle NO. (Not saying that you are the culprit, just a general observation):>)

[irishtenor]

That sums it up nicely:>).

[irishtenor]

He could have NOT planted the tree in the first place:>)

[Corin Stormhands]

You will see that I used different verbs than you did, thus your conclusions are incorrect.

No, as xzins said, I nailed it. Calvinism says:

The unregenerate cannot/will not choose/please God.
The regenerate can displease God but cannot not choose God.

You want "wiggle" room, but there's no way out. Either way.

[Corin Stormhands]

No ones hands are clean in this, no one can claim purity.

You're absolutely right. There is, however, a difference.

Follow the arguments of the majority of the Calvinsists (the main posters) and you will see that in many, if not most, cases their only point is to argue. Take a look at the posts that they offer "for discussion" when we know they're simply trolling for another chance to say "we're right, you're wrong."

I'm not sure if they've recognized it yet, but over the weekend an Arminian posted a direct quote from Calvin, but did not attribute it to him.

Within minutes they were trying to "refute" the statement, not even knowing the source, or the context. They didn't care what was said, just that an Arminian said it.

[irishtenor]

There are two that I will not speak to anymore because of their vicious attacks of me, or my beliefs. I am usually a gentle soul, and I don't usually hold grudges, but the attacks were uncalled for. Follow my posts back. I have never been caustic (maybe a little sarcasm, in a joking way). I have never called anybody a name. As I said, the fault lies both ways. No one can claim immunity.

[Hank Kerchief]

A "soul winner"? There is no such thing. There are only "seed planters" and "seed waterers". If there's going to be any "growth", that is totally God's doing.

I'm sorry if the language of Scripture is not acceptable to you.

Prov. 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

You must discount a great many verses of Scripture to discount the work of man in saving others.

1 Tim. 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

1 Cor. 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

In fact, the witness of individuals to other individuals is God's chosen way to save men.

1 Cor. 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

In case you have mistaken "preaching" with what is done by those professional religious orators who call themselves preachers, notice the wonderful example of preaching from Acts:

Acts 8:34-35 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man? Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

One on one. This is all I mean by "soul winning." The Bible calls those who do this wise. And, of the wise it says, "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." (Daniel 12:3) Now if there is no such thing as a soul-winner, who are, "they that turn many to righteousness?"

You may call them "seed planters," and "seed waterers," if you like. And it is certainly true only God can give the increase. (That's true of farmers, also, of course. We can plant and water our gardens, but if God does not bless them, we will all starve.) God and the Bible call those who plant the seed of God's word, and water it with their tears, soul-winners. "They that sow in tears shall reap in joy. He that goeth forth and weepeth, bearing precious seed, shall doubtless come again with rejoicing, bringing his sheaves with him." (Psalms 126:5-6)

Hank

[Revelation 911]

I'm not sure if they've recognized it yet, but over the weekend an Arminian posted a direct quote from Calvin, but did not attribute it to him. Within minutes they were trying to "refute" the statement, not even knowing the source, or the context. They didn't care what was said, just that an Arminian said it.

Links please ! I missed that gem - LOLOLOL

[DouglasKC]

Yes and no. At some point we have to say "I choose to follow your will, not my will God." God can sit there all day and night drawing us toward him, but as long as we resist, we resist. We need to give up self-determination and submit to God. At that point, God can begin to work his work in us.
Sounds to me like YOU have the power, God doesn't have enough power to break your resistance. Think it through again. Do you have power over God?

No. I am not more powerful than God. Not by a longshot. But God grants to us the right not to submit to his authority. We have a choice. God doesn't force obedience. We need to submit to God's authority.

[fortheDeclaration]

Whoa! Back up the horse there Nelly. You constructed an entire distorted image of belief. God foreknew and allowed the fall BECAUSE he had created man with free will and wouldn't violate his principle. Could God have stopped the fall had he chosen to? Remember God foreknew the fall before creation..could God have made things differently and prevented the fall?

Not without giving free will! It was God who wanted free will so He was willing to deal with the sin problem in order for His rational creatures, angels and man to freely love him.

[DouglasKC]

Could God have stopped the fall had he chosen to? Remember God foreknew the fall before creation..could God have made things differently and prevented the fall?

Let me say this one more time. God doesn't compel obedience. We are free to accept or reject God. God knew Adam and Eve were going to sin. He let them sin because he people are free to accept or reject him. He could have changed everything. He could have created people so that they would never reject him. But that's not love having children, that's making pets.

[irishtenor]

If it is God's will that you follow him, you don't have a choice. But that is not a bad thing. That is a good thing.

[DouglasKC]

Act 17:30 Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent,

I would like to get the Calvinist interpetation of this verse.

Paul, who had a direct experience with Jesus Christ, says that God is commanding ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent. How does this fit in with notion that God is only calling the elect to repentence and that everyone else is doomed?

[DouglasKC]

How about your take on post 275 also?

[irishtenor]

In the past, God chose to overlook such ignorance... except for the Jews. Whenever the Jews took to idols, God dealt with them harshly, but they were still God's people. The gentiles were not. Now, after Jesus, he is calling for all nations to repent. In other words, Jesus died for all types of men, not just for the Jews. All men could be sons of God, not just the Jews.

[RnMomof7]

This 'Calvinist' drinks wine, beer, and the 'better' stuff, but only in moderation. I haven't been drunk since I was 15, but that's another story...

He that the Lord sets free is free indeed!

[RnMomof7]

The unregenerate cannot/will not choose/please God.

Do you disagree with this Corb?

[Jerry_M]

"Why is this even an arguable point?"

For the simple reason that it goes right to the heart of the Gospel.

Either men are dead in trespasses and sins, and need to be born again before they believe, or they are just spiritually sick and need to be prodded into taking the right medicine. It is either or, it is not both.

The devil told Eve "You won't really die". man has believed that lie ever since the garden.