I find it incredibly interesting that in one breath you imply that the Wesleyan-Arminians don't understand Calvinism and in the next breath you clearly demonstrate the depth of your ignorance of Wesleyan-Arminianism. But you can't see it.
I have no reason to doubt that you are correct in your assessment of Hyper-Calvinism, but you are way off base with regard to Wesleyan-Arminianism when you say we are lax in our attitute towards missions.
I just got home from working at our church in preparation for a yard sale tomorrow that will raise between $15,000 to $20,000 to just partially cover the supplies for the 200-300 people our church will send on short term missions projects in 2002. Those people pay their own way. But let's look elsewhere.
Surely you've heard of John and Charles Wesley. While they may rightly be termed evangelists and not necessarily "missionaries" the purpose of their visits to America were clear - to reach people for the cause of Christ.
And what about Francis Asbury who came to America in 1771 never to return to England? He preached more than 18,000 sermons and traveled more than a quarter million miles on horseback to do so. He was such an influence on America that in 1924 a statue was erected in Washington, D.C. President Warren Harding said of Asbury, "He is entitled to rank as one of the builders of our Nation".
What about the other early Methodist Circuit Riders?
Peter Cartwright (1785-1872) described the life of the circuit- rider. He wrote in his Autobiography: "A Methodist preacher, when he felt that God had called him to preach, instead of hunting up a college or Biblical Institute, hunted up a hardy pony, and some traveling apparatus, and with his library always at hand, namely, a Bible, Hymn book, and Discipline, he started, and with a text that never wore out nor grew stale, he cried, 'Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world.' In this way he went through storms of wind, hail, snow, and rain; climbed hills and mountains, traversed valleys, plunged through swamps, swollen streams, lay out all night, wet, weary, and hungry, held his horse by the bridle all night, or tied him to a limb, slept with his saddle blanket for a bed, his saddle-bags for a pillow. Often he slept in dirty cabins, ate roasting ears for bread, drank butter-milk for coffee; took deer or bear meat, or wild turkey, for breakfast, dinner, and supper. This was old-fashioned Methodist preacher fare and fortune."
What about men like E. Stanley Jones? "For more than half a century, Dr. E. Stanley Jones proclaimed the Gospel of Christ and applied it to men’s personal, social, national, and international problems as they arose on every continent and among all cultures. He was probably the world’s best-known and longest-tested Christian missionary and evangelist. He moved among statesmen and among leaders without portfolios as counselor, friend and worker for peace and goodwill. He helped hundreds of thousands, from village outcasts in India to molders of public opinion in America, Japan, Europe and India."
What about people like Christine and Meredith Helsby who were missionaries to China with the Oriental Missions Society (now OMS International. Personal family friends (now deceased) the Helsbys were imprisoned in China during the Japanese occupation. They were acquainances of and spoke highly of Scottish Missionary Eric Liddle. After the war the Helsbys returned to the Orient and spent the rest of their careers as missionaries in Taiwan.
What about the Asbury College revival of 1970? What began as a regular college chapel service which lasted about an hour, instead lasted 185 hours non-stop, 24 hours a day. Intermittently, it continued for weeks. Ultimately, it spread across the United States and into foreign countries. By the summer of 1970, the revival had reached more than 130 other colleges, seminaries and Bible schools, and scores of churches, according to published accounts. It spread from New York to California, and even to South America.
And what about people like Jeannine Brabon, a missionary kid and a student at Asbury in 1970. Jeannine organized a campus prayer time before each chapel service that met quitely in the basement below the chapel for months before the revival broke out. Today Jeannine continues as a missionary with OMS International in Columbia where she faces daily death threats due to her work in the prisons.
I could go on, but hopefully you're getting the point that you are way off base when you say Wesleyan-Arminians are "lax" in our commitment to missions. If you're not convinced yet, follow some of these links:
The Salvation Army
World Gospel Mission
Nazarene Missions International
The Christian and Missionary Alliance
Assemblies of God Missions
Church of God (Anderson) Ministries: Outreach
Free Methodist World Missions
Again, I could go on, but hopefully you're getting the point. So, while you may visit those pages and find much with which you would disagree on a theological basis you will find no indication that these organizations (and there are many more like them), all with Wesleyan-Arminian roots, are lax in their commitment to missions.
One more thing. I've seen several references from the Calvinists that they believe the Wesleyan-Arminians exhibit a lack of zeal or desire to share the gospel here on FreeRepublic. My question would be, with all of the "witnessing" and "evangelizing" that the Calvinists "do" here on FreeRepublic...
How many sinners have been brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the FreeRepublic ministry of the Calvinists? Not how many Christians of other persuasions have "converted" to Calvinism. How many totally depraved sinners have been won for the Lord? And, what means would you use to accept or reject their testimony?
Amen to your post on the missionary activity of the Wesleyians. I would also say that I have seen very little actual Gospel cited by Calvinists on these threads!
I hear alot about the need to be saved, but very little on how one can be saved!
excellent points
From my "denoms" website
The Free Methodist church in the United States numbers 74,170 members with over 90,000 attenders in Sunday worship services.
There are 900 churches in the US and the average size congregation is 100 attenders.
Interestingly, in the past 25 years the Free Methodist church around the world has increased by 350%. That growth has largely been seen in Africa, especially in war torn countries, such as the Congo, Rwanda and Burundi. For example, Rwandan church grew by 250% even during the years of widespread violence and tribal genocide.
The growth of the church overseas is certainly related to the dedicated missionary emphasis of the North American church during the past 100 years.
I will add that a condition of becoming a pastor in Africa is the requirement that the pastoral candidate, through assistance of his/her congregation, "daughter" no less than three new congregations, and while I dont have the figures at hand, the FM presence overseas is greater than the overall combined membership in the U.S.
I didn't say there has never been Arminians who witness -only that 'logically' there is the tendency to avoid this. Such is the case with xzins theology that suggests there are those who never heard of Christ who haven't had the chance to reject Christ and will, thus, be saved. Thus, why would we want to bring the gospel message to them? They might reject it.
"How many sinners have been brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the FreeRepublic ministry of the Calvinists? Not how many Christians of other persuasions have "converted" to Calvinism. How many totally depraved sinners have been won for the Lord? And, what means would you use to accept or reject their testimony?"
GREAT question! This question shows that Calvnists typically aren't concerned with the 'numbers' game of seeing how many 'souls' we can 'win' for Christ. We are told to preach the foolishness of the Christ crucified. It is our job to plant the seed. It is the job of the Holy Spirit at some point now, or in the future to open the mind of the lost and regenerate that person so they will believe. Calvinists aren't out to pump up the numbers of 'mega-churches' and with an 'alter-call' or a 'sinners prayer'. It is the simple and foolish message of Christ crucified which is what we are called to preach.
Furthermore, the fact that you see heated exchange here seems to confirm to you that the Calvinists aren't doing a 'good job' at witnessing. Noting, as well, that this is not a 'witnessing forum', but rather, a forum in which we are attacked (many times viciously-thus proving the 'foolishness' of our message) and we must defend ourselves. We are content (as I've been told privately from a non-calvinist) that the records of the various posts show that we are dealing with some very unreasonable people here on FR. That being said, a 'theological discussion' (especially in defense mode) does not tend to be 'evangelical'. In my personal witnessing, I don't load up heavily on TULIP -although that can enter in to the discussion (especially to bring comfort which it usually does). Nonetheless, what we preach is gospel truth, and I feel confindent that the Holy Spirit can use any part of the truth to open the hearts of the lost. Again, this doesn't have to be evident 'immediately' as the Arminian position needs and thus their 'sugar coating' of the gospel to make an 'easy decision'. One Arminian group I know will give candy bars for verse memorization. The troubled kids I work with meet with this group once a week. It isn't until they line up to go see the church group that they haul out their verses in order to get their candy. Oh, and if the church groups (there are more than 1) don't offer candy, the attendence is much much lighter. You won't see this shamefull display in Calvinistic churches.
Jean
I had already noticed that he had been talking about the theological pitfalls common to both Arminians and hyper-Calvinists. Not everyone steps into these traps. No one who knows church history would try to deny the evangelistic zeal of, say, the early Wesleyan Methodists.
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How many sinners have been brought to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ through the FreeRepublic ministry of the Calvinists
Jean called this a great question on your part, but I don't read it in the same way as he does, Corin.
Gosh, it would be stupid of the Calvinists on this forum to try to use this forum primarily for converting non-professors to Christ. (For the most part, only reasonably zealous churchgoers visit these threads.)
But we are still doing some important things. As it turns out, these threads are the first step for many of our typically religious lurkers to realize that the true gospel is more profound than today's too-carnal Christians have realized. We have had significant success in reaching people like that. And we think that is immeasurably important.
Of course, we do run into our share of evidently lost professing Christians. The problem is, a lot of today's carnal Christians are obviously not saved anyway. They don't really know the Lord. They are just proud of their denominational backgrounds. They are like the Pharisees. They are unscrupulous slanderers. They are self-deceived liars.
They are stuck in the Fall. They are stuck in the Lie of Eden. And that, Corin, is primarily the problem of Arminianism in our day. Read the Genesis 3 Thread.
You should also read John 8:30-59. It is a strongly Calvinistic text. Ask the Lord Jesus how many people He converted in that passage. (You see, John 8:30f was recorded for the benefit of people who would read it as "lurkers." These lurkers would notice what many lurkers have noticed on our threads. Jean Chauvin mentioned one such lurker. I am aware of others who have said the same thing about the people who have raged against us Calvinists.)
Well, to be quite honest, I am enjoying The Unshakable Kingdom and the Unchanging Person because it is a good presentation of the gospel itself. It would be a horrible book for doctrine, but I suspect that Jones never intended it to be that way.
I bring this up because the Arminian FReepers here don't know what the gospel is. Not one has been able to tell me In over a year of my FReeping here; no, not one. Now, if as Dr. Jones says in his book that the churches today have forgotten what the gospel is, then how can you be said to be preaching the gospel in all the nations?
Now, I had asked winston a few days ago, when he in his error proclaimed Rev 3:20 to be the gospel, to name the gospel (exactly 5 words) and later to express the gospel (exactly 3 words) and he couldn't do it. In fact, as I believe that Dr. Jones is correct and as I believe that the pastors who preached the city wide revival to my church when they said that the gospel has been lost (Remember that we are talking about Arminian churches), then what exactly are you Arminians doing?
So, I am not suprised at all that Arminianism has lost the gospel and replaced it with "man-made" words and call it the gospel. Arminianism breeds apostasy as OP has pointed out and it has lost the gospel.
BTW, just for your FYI, both doc and OP knew exactly what I was talking about and they are Calvinist. So, I have no doubt that our Calvinist brothers and sisters actually preach the gospel when they go on a mission.