The True Eucharist

Sapphires | Jonathan Cahn

[patent]

>>>Is that better? :>)))))

Better than the words the_doc used? Infinitely. More in the true sense of charity? Definitely.

patent

[RnMomof7]

Sometimes we forget that almost the entire ministry of Jesus as recorded was to challange the Jewish law and the "traditions " of men. That is what made them kill Him...they really loved their traditions and positions ..so much so they were deaf to His words

[Gophack]

Nor with those who believe that it isn't valid to use Scripture alone, in spite of what Jesus said: ".... do not give yourselves [pretentious titles .. you [regenerate] are all brothers ... [and] you have ONE *Teacher*, the Christ." [Matt.23:8-10].

Read Chapter 23 in its entirity. You will see that Jesus is admonishing the people to follow good doctrine, not the bad example of the scribes and Pharisees. He says to follow the law of the hypocrites, but not the actions:

All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not.

For they bind heavy and insupportable burdens and lay them on men's shoulders: but with a finger of their own they will not move them. (Matthew 23:3-4)

Then how would you interpret the following Scripture in light of the verse you quoted? No part of the Bible can contradict another part of the Bible, therefore, everything must be taken together as a whole first, then singly. If your interpretation of a verse contradicts the teaching in another verse, perhaps your interpretation is in error. Fortunately, the Bible is the True Word of God, and we can rely on it to guide us, but we also must trust tradition, which was so important to the early church fathers --- even before the NT was written!!! --- because the early church fathers were close to the apostles and disciples of the apostles.

"But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written" (John 21:25).

"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).

"Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (2 Tim. 1:13-14).

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)

"You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:1-2).

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).

God bless

[patent]

>>>>Sometimes we forget that almost the entire ministry of Jesus as recorded was to challange the Jewish law and the "traditions " of men.

Do you mean that? Jesus came to be the Sacrifice that freed us from death, restoring the covenant lost by Adam’s sin. This is much more important then challenging traditions of men. Regarding the law, parts of Jewish law were dictated by God, and He did not challenge that, so much as fulfill it.

He did fully criticize hypocrisy when He found it, but there is no honest way to compare what the_doc does in his e-mails to what Jesus said in public.

patent  +AMDG

[Brian Kopp DPM]

These are the words of the_doc that you are attributing to being just as Godly as the words of Paul, Stephen, and Christ. Careful! Blasphemy is a grave sin!

And despite your personal interpretations, the words of the_doc bespeak a borderline personality disordered, and a seriously troubled individual. Jesus was quite sane. The_doc, and your defense of him, are not:

You are a disgrace to your profession, of course.

Ah, but your demonic controller will never let you be reasonable about this stuff. You spiritual idiots would rather go to hell than to admit that a Protestant is right

And I happen to be a saint. Already. It is quite literally the greatest thing in the world. On the other hand, you are--to put it bluntly--Satanically screwed.

Either way, on Judgment Day, I win.

I regard you as a silly cannibal

you are idiots and cannibals to boot

makes you a superstitious religious dork.<

[Codie]

And as the world was clean for a while after, Jesus still came to "clean" things up, didn't He?

Yep.And the Catholic Church is still here and growing.Teaching the "Fullness of the Faith",as it always has.Not once has it ever bended to the pressure of modernism. Can you make the same claim about Protestism?

[RnMomof7]

Do you mean that? Jesus came to be the Sacrifice that freed us from death, restoring the covenant lost by Adam’s sin. This is much more important then challenging traditions of men. Regarding the law, parts of Jewish law were dictated by God, and He did not challenge that, so much as fulfill it.

I did not address His purpose only His ministry...and the Jews called for His death becasue He challanged their man made laws..Think about it next time youu read the gospels..time after time Jesus "breaks" their man made laws

Mat 23:2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay [them] on men's shoulders; but they [themselves] will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,

[Codie]

God has no interest in numbers codie..if numbers were the tie breaker you would have to become a muslim

God is not author confusion either.Which is all I find in the Protestant faith.You and I have been down this road before,no?

[RnMomof7]

Brian...those are very direct words. But sometimes directness is the best way to get someone's attention...If your child was about to step out in front of a moving car you would not say...."sweetie please be cautious where you put your feet as thay oncoming car might make you mush"

NO you would SHOUT "STOP"..in hopes that your sharp tone would make them stop and save their lives...read the words of Jesus ...he never compromised His words to spare feelings..

I do not think you are a dork:>)) but it sure did get your attention

Read Matt 23...

[RnMomof7]

God is not author confusion either.Which is all I find in the Protestant faith.You and I have been down this road before,no?

All the Jews in the day of Jesus walked in lock step..but they were all wrong codie

There are two kinds of spiritual error IMHO a Fatal error..beliefs that lead the well intentioned follower of that religion to hell...and non fatal error..a misunderstanding of one or more doctrine that has no impact on the salvation of those that follow that religion

I know it looks like the people on the protestant doctrinal threads are all over the place...but for the most part the discussions are on non fatal errors..

An example I would give that you can understand is Eucharist..I (speaking only for my self) do not believe that either position is a fatal error ...or in the case of my Presbyterian brothers ..their infant baptism..is not a fatal error.

A fatal error would be believing that by keeping all points of the law (or being a good person) you can earn your way to heaven..salvation BY works is a fatal error..because it eliminates the blood of Christ and the need for a Savior..and damns for eternity

[patent]

Think about it next time youu read the gospels..time after time Jesus "breaks" their man made laws

I have thought about as I read the Gospels in response to a previous Protestant who made the same arguments. Have you read any of the links Oremus posted above?

Your point re Jesus “breaking” man made laws. It is true he did this, but it is also an oversimplification of who He was and what He did. The Jesus Christ we encounter in the Gospels cannot be reduced to sound bites like that. He is an incredibly complex figure, and each time we read the Gospels we are exposed to more and more of His complex divinity and humanity. The quote you made demonstrates that well. As you say, he did break man made laws. He also commanded that the people obey the authorities He set over them. Did He establish these authorities for the OT, but not for the NT? There is no doubt He established them in the OT, nor is there doubt He expected the faithful to obey the authority He established over them. AT the same time He did often condemn some of the restrictions the leaders imposed.

He did not, of course, condemn the Traditions handed down by God. There is a distinction many Protestants don’t recognize, but which is central to the theology here for a Catholic. The Bible is the Word of God, of course, but it is not all He did or said. It makes that clear. We also have the Traditions handed down. Now, there are customs, and there are Traditions. A Tradition is something we believe divinely inspired, just as with the Bible. A custom is something that has been done, but can change. The particular words used in parts of the Mass is an example. I know you know this, but you have to keep it in mind in this context specifically.

The “traditions” (customs) that Jesus broke were all things that the religious leaders imposed, not things passed down by God weren’t they? So too, today the Church fully recognizes that its customs (small t traditions) can change, and indeed they have many times. The Traditions handed it by our Lord, and passed through the Magisterium from generation to generation by the faithful watch of the Holy Spirit, on the other hand, cannot change.

patent  +AMDG

[patent]

>>>All the Jews in the day of Jesus walked in lock step..but they were all wrong codie

Not true, there were bitter factions, both before and after Jesus.

[Wrigley]

Good grief. Mary is dead. If I have relatives and friends pray for me, its because they are still alive. I don't have my Grandfather who was a Godly man ask God for favors for me. Why would I have Mary?

[patent]

>>>A fatal error would be believing that by keeping all points of the law (or being a good person) you can earn your way to heaven..salvation BY works is a fatal error..because it eliminates the blood of Christ and the need for a Savior..and damns for eternity

Do you know anyone who teaches that? Catholics believe Salvation is by Grace, accepted by faith and its twin, works.

[Codie]

There are two kinds of spiritual error IMHO a Fatal error..beliefs that lead the well intentioned follower of that religion to hell...and non fatal error..a misunderstanding of one or more doctrine that has no impact on the salvation of those that follow that religion

Oh..mortal and venial sins,correct?

[Brian Kopp DPM]

in hopes that your sharp tone would make them stop and save their lives

When you repulse those "in need" of salvation, you are not spreading the gospel, you are spreading deception and undercutting the gospel. I have no need of his or your interpretation of the gospel for my salvation, thank you. I've got the Real thing already.

You still defend him. You too are guilty of his sin. Please spare me your patronizing posts.

[RnMomof7]

He did not, of course, condemn the Traditions handed down by God. There is a distinction many Protestants don’t recognize, but which is central to the theology here for a Catholic. The Bible is the Word of God, of course, but it is not all He did or said. It makes that clear. We also have the Traditions handed down.

Yes there is a distinction..but remember the source of those traditions...the scriptures...Look how Jesus justified His breaking of their traditions..frequently he said "it is written". Even Jesus Christ relied on scripture..

Patent IMHO the church has the same problem that the Jews of the day of Jesus had..they kept refining and adding to the scripture, adding layer upon layer of tradition and rules onto to what God made so simple

Oral tradition can be confused...But God is constant and He never changes ..so if the tradition is not in accord with the revelation of the scriptures you have to go with the written word. we are warned Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

I have no problem with some tradition..it is often soothing and they offer some security in an ever changing world..Protestants have traditions they hold onto also..the difference is they do not hold them to the same level of infallability as Catholics do..

I think I said this at the time..I went to an Orthodox vesper service.......it was a wonderful reminder of my youth..the incense and the chanting and the ritual...it was a very nice evening for me. But when we give that kind of tradition the same level of honor that we give to God's word ..or believe it is necesary for salvation......well that is Matt 23 territory:>)

[RnMomof7]

accepted by faith and its twin, works.

A fatal error IMHO

[Matchett-PI]

I wrote: "..... Jesus said: ".... do not give yourselves [pretentious titles .. you [regenerate] are all brothers ... [and] you have ONE *Teacher*, the Christ." [Matt.23:8-10]."

You replied: "Read Chapter 23 in its entirity. You will see that Jesus is admonishing the people to follow good doctrine, not the bad example of the scribes and Pharisees. He says to follow the law of the hypocrites, but not the actions: "All things therefore whatsoever they shall say to you, observe and do: but according to their works do ye not. For they say, and do not."

Nothing in Scripture contradicts Jesus' plain words above.

"Moses' seat" represents the teaching authority of those responsible for interpreting "the laws of Moses". After Matt.15:1-20 it would be quite surprising if Jesus meant that everything in scribal teaching must be obeyed. The balance of the sentence falls rather on the second half: "Do what they say, if you like, but don't do what they do."

[RnMomof7]

Oh..mortal and venial sins,correct?

No codie. Jesus paid the price for all that are saved ...He paid the price for all past sins , all current sins and all future sins..I know it is hard to grasp..but keeping the law does not save..

We can not save ourselves by living a good life codie..

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.(Romans 5;15)

Salvation

- Is of God
#PS 3:8; Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah.

- Is of the purpose of God
#2TI 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

- Is of the appointment of God
#1TH 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

A correct understanding of the plan of salvation...repentance and what will flow from that..understanding the true depth of your sin and that there is nothing you could ever do to stand clean infront of a Holy God..and giving your life to Christ..the one that bought it on the cross..that is what "saves" you codie..not keeping the law