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To: The Grammarian
You are reading the corporate idea into the text of 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5.

This is like saying a Christian is not a saint because the apostles were addressing groups of Christians in calling them "saints."

Besides, Romans 16:13 actually says "Salute Rufus, chosen in the Lord."

1,746 posted on 04/30/2002 5:36:18 PM PDT by the_doc
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To: the_doc
You are reading the corporate idea into the text of 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5.

Am I now? Let's go to Romans 9, since that's where the core of the "election" debate begins.

These words, with those of Malachi, Jacob have I loved, and Esau have I hated, are cited by the apostle to prove, according to their typical signification, that the purpose of God, according to election, does and will stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; that is, that the purpose of God, which is the ground of that election which he makes among men, unto the honour of being Abraham's seed, might appear to remain unchangeable in him; and to be even the same which he had declared unto Abraham. That these words are used in a national and not in a personal sense, is evident from this: that, taken in the latter sense they are not true, for Jacob never did exercise any power over Esau, nor was Esau ever subject to him. Jacob, on the contrary, was rather subject to Esau, and was sorely afraid of him; and, first, by his messengers, and afterwards personally, acknowledged his brother to be his lord, and himself to be his servant; see #Ge 32:4; 33:8, 13. And hence it appears that neither Esau nor Jacob, nor even their posterities, are brought here by the apostle as instances of any personal reprobation from eternity: for, it is very certain that very many, if not the far greatest part, of Jacob's posterity were wicked, and rejected by God; and it is not less certain that some of Esau's posterity were partakers of the faith of their father Abraham. ...That no personal, absolute, eternal reprobation of Esau can have been intended, we learn from this; that he was most amply reconciled to his brother, who had so deeply wronged and offended him, by depriving him of his birthright and his blessing: and his having forgiven his brother his trespasses, was no mean proof that God had forgiven him. See our Lord's words, #Mt 6:14. Therefore there can be assigned no competent ground of his damnation, much less of his personal reprobation from all eternity.
(Clarke's Commentary on Ro. 9:12)

I have loved Jacob—With a peculiar love; that is, the Israelites, the posterity of Jacob; and I have comparatively hated Esau—That is, the Edomites, the posterity of Esau. But observe, 1st, This does not relate to the person of Jacob or Esau: 2d, Nor does it relate to the eternal state either of them or their posterity. Thus far the apostle has been proving his proposition, namely, that the exclusion of a great part of the seed of Abraham, yea, and of Isaac, from the special promises of God, was so far from being impossible, that, according to the Scriptures themselves, it had actually happened. And his intent herein, as appears from verses 30-33, (which passage is a key to the whole chapter,) is evidently to show, that as God before chose Jacob, who represented the Jews, and admitted him and his posterity to peculiar privileges, above the Gentiles, without any merit in him or them to deserve it; so now, (the Jews through their unbelief having rejected the Messiah, and being justly therefore themselves rejected of God,) he had chosen the Gentiles, represented by Esau, to be his peculiar people; according to the prediction of Hosea, I will call them my people, &c., cited verse 25, where see the note; and that without any thing on their part to deserve this favour. It was entirely free with respect both to them and Jacob, God's mercy and goodness preventing, not the endeavour only, but even the will of both. As, before Jacob either willed or strove for it, the blessing was designed of God for him; so, before ever the Gentiles sought after God, the blessings of Christ's kingdom were designed for them. Yet it does not follow that all who are called Christians, and enjoy outward church privileges, shall be finally saved, any more than it is to be concluded that all the Jews were saved before Christ came in the flesh, on account of their privileges.
(Benson's Commentary on Ro. 9:9-13)

This is like saying a Christian is not a saint because the apostles were addressing groups of Christians in calling them "saints."

Huh?

Besides, Romans 16:13 actually says "Salute Rufus, chosen in the Lord."

ton eklekon, one of great excellence in Christianity; a choice man, as we would say. So the word eklekton often signifies. #Ps 78:31: They smote toun eklektoun, the chosen men that were of Israel. So eklekta mnemeia are choice sepulchres, #Ge 23:6: eklekta ton doron choice gifts, #De 12:11; and andren eklektoi, choice men, #Jud 20:16. By the same use of the word, the companions of Paul and Barnabas are termed chosen men, eklexamenoun andran, persons in whom the Church of God could confide. See Whitby.
(Clarke's Commentary on Ro. 16:13)
1,768 posted on 04/30/2002 8:53:39 PM PDT by The Grammarian
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