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PREDESTINATION
Bible Believers Resource | Unknown | Andrew Telford

Posted on 04/13/2002 1:33:01 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration

Predestination (Refutation of Five Point Calvinism) Predestination LET us begin the study of this subject by turning to Romans 8, and we will read three verses:

28. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose."

29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

30. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called; and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

As we study together, let us pray that God will give us light on these matters of sovereignty. Yea, let us ask God to give us more light than we have ever had before. Let us remember we are dealing with subjects that have to do with Divine Sovereignty. These subjects have nothing to do with the deliberate planning of man. These matters can only be known to mankind as God by His Spirit has set them forth in His Word. As we look at the subject of Predestination, we are certain that it is a much discussed subject, and perhaps as much misunderstood. Let me mention again the meaning of Adoption as set forth in the Bible. "Adoption is a divine act of God, whereby God sets a goal for the believer." Man had nothing to do with setting that goal. It was solely the work of the Sovereign God. We see that Adoption is future. Paul with the believers in Rome was waiting for the Adoption to take place.

We now look at the subject of Predestination. Perhaps this subject is misunderstood because it has been dealt with in class rooms in a cold theological way, separated from the Word of God. Keep ever in mind that the Word of God gives clearness, and brilliancy to all doctrinal truths. Any doctrine, it does not matter what it is, when separated from the Word in discussion or presentation, becomes cold; and people do not understand it. The doctrine of Predestination is not only set forth in the Word of God, but it is so set forth that our hearts can be warmed, our minds filled, and our souls blessed as we study it.

I have a friend who is a preacher. He was a very earnest young Christian with a great desire to see souls won to Christ. He spent himself in every way to lead people to the Saviour. This same man was invited to preach in a country church in the Western states. He went for a week of meetings and on the closing evening, when he had just started preaching his sermon, he noticed a tall, young man come into his service. He wore a large cowboy hat, and had a red handkerchief fastened about his neck. This man took a back seat. While my friend was preaching the Gospel, this young man was in his mind, and upon his heart. He kept thinking about him and saw him sitting there silently. He continued preaching but felt that God was speaking to that man, and that evening would be the night when he would receive the Saviour. At the close of his sermon he gave a few words of invitation for people to accept Christ, and to signify their desire by coming forward. The man in the back seat who came in late did not respond. While the song leader led the congregation in the invitation song, the young preacher went down to the back seat, laid his hand upon the shoulder of the cowboy and said, "I suppose you are a Christian." The young man answered by saying, "That is just where you are mistaken. I am not." The preacher began to impress upon him God's desire to save him. The cowboy turned to the preacher and said, "There is no use of speaking to me, for God has predestinated me to Hell. He has not predestinated me to go to Heaven." The young preacher could not answer him so returned to the platform and closed the meeting.

Two years later, the same church had built a new building. They asked the same preacher to return and hold another week of Gospel meetings. At the first meeting, while the preacher was preaching his sermon, who should come walking in and take his seat at the rear of the church but the same young man, who had been there two years previous. When the preacher finished his sermon, he went down and to the young man as he had done previously. He asked the young man to accept Christ as his Saviour.- The young man said that God had predestinated him to go to Hell. There was no use in him trying to believe the Gospel. The preacher said, "Two years ago you told me the same thing. You had me in a corner. I could not answer you. I thought at that time that perhaps God had predestinated you to Hell, and I left you. Since then I have been reading my Bible. I just want to tell you now that God never predestinated a man to Hell and desires and wants to save you now."

In the writing of this article I want to prove to you that the young preacher told the truth. Moreover we want to know how to deal with those who make such statements as this cowboy made to the preacher.

Many things have been said about Predestination in books. Some of these statements have been made by good men. Yes, some Godly men have made statements saying that God has predestinated some people to Heaven and some people to Hell. While such men have been right on other truths, of the Word of God, they have most surely been wrong in this. First, they have been ignorant of the teaching of the Word of God on the subject. Second, they have been in error concerning the truth of Adoption, Election, and Foreknowledge. This is a terrible statement for any man to make or dare to make, "that God predestinates some people to Hell." It is not true. It is not according to the clear teaching of the Bible, and is diabolical. Listen to what the Apostle Peter says in II Peter 3: 9

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Hear what Paul says in 1Timothy 2: <{P> 3. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;"

4. "Who will have all men to be saved, and - to come unto the knowledge of the truth."

Now, in the light of these verses, how can one say that God has predestinated some people to Hell, and some people to Heaven?

In dealing with these four subjects of sovereignty: Adoption, Predestination, Election, Foreknowledge, it is well to remember a certain phrase used in the wedding ceremony. We are all familiar with the phrase. "What God, therefore, has joined together, let no man put asunder." I would like to reverse that, "What God has put asunder, let no man join together." These four truths or subjects of sovereignty are truths that differ. They are not jumbled together in the Word of God so that man cannot understand them. God has set them in their position and in proper relationship in the Word of God. The Spirit of God is always trying to bring to our hearts and minds the simplicity, and beauty of these truths as they are clearly set forth in His Word. The Spirit of God is not bothered with the doctrines of man, and is not bothered with man's interpretation of the doctrines of the Word. The Spirit never gives a Methodist interpretation of Predestination. Neither is He bothered about the Presbyterian way of handling the subject. He does not ask anyone to accept the Baptist view of this doctrine. The Spirit of God does not have any denominational ax to grind. Neither does He seek, present or promote denominational interpretations of certain doctrines. When writing on these subjects, I remove myself from all denominational platforms to present the truth. I take the Bible to mean what it says and to say what it means. In our hearts inquire after the clear, satisfying understanding of the doctrine of Predestination, we will turn to the Bible and will find what the loving Father has to teach His children in this matter, and our hearts will be satisfied.

A class of young men in a Bible School wanted to get a teacher. They asked a certain doctor if he would teach their class. So he began. The class had several who had recently been born into the family of God. Their hearts were hungry. They were college students. In the course of study, one of them asked their teacher about the subject of Predestination. The teacher being an honest Christian said that he could not explain the subject himself, but would bring them a book on the subject, written by his denomination.

One of these young men called to see me concerning the teaching of this book. The young man said that they had been asking their teacher some questions. One of the questions was on the subject of Predestination. The teacher had been honest, and said that he could not explain it, but he had a book which could, and assured him that he would find great help from it.

The book which he handed me was on the subject of Election. I said to the young man, "I notice the book is on the subject of Election, and not Predestination. However, we will read a few paragraphs together." The writer of that book had not gone far on the first page, when he used the words Predestination and Election interchangeably. This is why the young man said to me, "The more I read this book the less I know and understand about the subject of Predestination." The writer tried to join together what God had made clear in His Word should never be joined together. These subjects of sovereignty that we are dealing with in this book are separate subjects, and they do differ.

Now, is the subject of Predestination a Bible subject, or is it not? Can a humble believer know anything about this great truth? If it is a Bible truth, and most certainly it is, then the Bible is the best book to turn to for help and blessing. As we enter upon the subject of Predestination, let me give you a definition. May I remind you again of the definition of Adoption. Adoption is a divine act of God whereby, God sets a goal (Son placed) for the believer.

Definition of Predestination Predestination is a divine act of God whereby God makes that goal-(Adoption, or Son-placing) certain for the believer.

In Ephesians 1:5 we read:

5. "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will."

Notice the first sentence in this verse. It says that God has predestinated us unto the Adoption of children. I trust this simple definition is a clear one. We will now go through the Scriptures following a certain outline to see how the Spirit of God sets forth in beautiful simplicity this gracious truth for the hearts of all of God's people.

I. The Precise Meaning of the Word What does the word "Predestination" mean when you look at the etymology of the word itself ? Predestination is made up of two words. The first part is "pre", which means before, or beforehand. The last part of the word is "destination" which means the climax, end or farthest extent. The little word pre has to do with something beforehand. The word "destination" has to do with the farthest extent. We understand by this then, what Predestination, according to the precise meaning of the word has to do with: something beforehand and something at the farthest end or termination. Predestination has nothing to do with anything in between. The time is designated by the word "pre" and the farthest extent is designated by the word "destination."

It was not predestinated that I write this book. It was not predestinated by God that I should be the pastor of this church. It was not predestinated that this lady should play the piano in this church. These things have nothing whatsoever to do with the subject of Predestination.

Predestination is God doing something beforehand, and doing something about or concerning, or relative to the farthest extent. Predestination does not deal with anything in between these two points.

Last night I was in Washington. Yesterday afternoon I went down to the ticket office in the railroad station. I put down my clergy ticket and for $5.90, the clerk handed me a strip of paper with some writing on it. Before she handed it to me, she placed a stamp on two halves of the paper divided by perforated lines, one being on each ticket. On one line of one ticket she stamped "From North Philadelphia to Washington." On the ticket it did not say anything about conditions or happenings between North Philadelphia and Washington. It did not remark about the scenery, about the conditions of the coach, it just said "From North Philadelphia to Washington."

Now turn to the word "Predestination" in reference to the railroad ticket. Pre, which means beforehand, and implies that the railroad corporation decided that for $5.90 they would carry a man from Philadelphia-to the destination- Washington. The railroad company, beforehand, guarantees the delivery of the man to a certain destination. A man may be cold on a train, a man may be sick physically, a man may injure his hand, the railroad company states nothing about what might happen between North Philadelphia and Washington. They have taken the responsibility of delivering the individual to the destination. This had been thought of, planned, and worked out, beforehand. That is the illustration of the meaning of the important word "Predestination." It means precisely what the word itself declares.

II. The Purpose of Predestination Now we turn to Romans 8:28-30.

28. "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are called according to His purpose."

29. "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."

30. "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom he called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."

We notice here in verse 29 the purpose of Predestination. It is, that we might be conformed to the image of His Son. Now when will that take place? We read in Romans 8:23 that it will take place when the body is redeemed, and that is the time of my adoption. In Ephesians 1:5 the Spirit of God spoke through the Apostle Paul:

5. "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

We are dealing with the matter of the purpose of Predestination, and the purpose of Predestination is to bring us to the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. "To be conformed to the image of His Son," Romans 8 :29.

This is the definite purpose of God in Predestination. He has predestinated us unto the Adoption. Keep in mind the definition of the word. Predestination is a divine act of God, whereby, God makes that goal which is Adoption, certain for the believer. The purpose of God in Predestination then is Adoption, and when we are Adopted we shall be Son-placed. When we are Son-placed we shall be like Him, we shall then be in the image of His Son.

III. The People Who Are Predestinated Now we will look at the portion of the subject that has to do with the people who are included in the Predestination purposes of God. I was speaking one Saturday evening at a Bible conference on the subject of Predestination. During the evenings of a week of meetings, which would close on the following day, there had been sitting near the front each evening a fine young man with his lady friend. After having spoken on the subject of Predestination, I stepped off the platform.

This young man came to me and said, "I have enjoyed your ministry this week. I am sorry that I cannot be here tomorrow which is your closing day. My seminary work begins on Monday, and I must leave early tomorrow in order to arrive there in time for school. I have enjoyed the meetings and have been blessed by hearing you week. I should like to tell you something about the meeting here tonight. I did not believe a thing you said about 'Predestination'."

I said to him, "Friend, what is there in particular in my message that you do not believe ?"

"Well," he said, "I still believe that God Predestinates some folks to Heaven and Predestinates some to Hell.'!

He came to the meeting with preconceived ideas about the subject of Predestination, and would not be convinced even by the Scriptures.

Perhaps he was prejudiced against my teaching of the subject because of what his denomination believed concerning the matter of Predestination. Of course, if he wanted to remain in the denomination and be a part of it, he would have to hold to the "denominational view" of Predestination.

Let me say here and now, concerning Bible study, when studying the Word of God every person should lay to one side their denominational glasses, and turn, with the use of every faculty they have, under the control of the Spirit of God, to find the mind of the Spirit regarding the teaching of the Bible. Do not say it does not matter what I believe about this truth and that, it is nonessential and unimportant. There are no non-essential truths-neither are there unimportant truths. Every part of the truth in the Word of God is of vast and valuable importance to victorious living.

The young man previously referred to, said, "If you have a brother who is not a Christian, and you are one, if you both died tonight, one saved, and the other lost, I believe that God predestinated one for Heaven, and the one that was lost, for Hell."

I said to him, "Now you have made a definite statement, and in your statement another issue is involved. You have laid a charge against God. You have charged God with damning a soul. Now would you open the Bible and confirm your statements with Scripture, for if God does this, you should find some support for it in the Word of God without difficulty."

He said, "Ephesians 1:4 teaches that God predestinates the saved to Heaven, and the lost to Hell."

Now keep in mind that we are dealing with the matter of the people who are Predestinated, and to show you the error of this young man's statement. I want you to notice the teaching of Paul in the book of the Ephesians in general, which leads us to the clear teaching of Ephesians 1:4 in particular. To understand clearly the teaching of the book, you must understand clearly the mind and purpose of God in the book where the text is found. In the book of Ephesians, Paul is presenting to us the truth concerning the Church, which is His Body. The Church which is His Body is made-up of all believers. God only recognizes and is only identified with one Church on earth. Every person born of the Spirit of God belongs to the Church, which is His Body, spoken of in Ephesians 1: 22, 23:

22. "And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the Church,"

23. "Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all."

So many people know about the Church, but do not understand what the Church really means. In Ephesians we have the divine blue print of the Church. The word church is found in Ephesians nine times, and the word body is also found nine times. If a man is not saved or born of the Spirit, he does not belong to the Church which is His Body. Those who are in the Church, the Body of Christ, are sinners who have been saved by the grace of God. If you are saved you are in the Body of Christ, which had its beginning on the Day of Pentecost; when the Holy Spirit baptized those who believed and were scattered units into that body, thus making them members of the Body of Christ, and relating them to the Head in Heaven, who is the Lord Jesus Christ.

The work of the Spirit of God is to bring members in to the Body of Christ. Now Paul in this book is dealing with the Body of Christ; the Church as a whole is a corporate group or body. He is not speaking of us as individual believers. If I have entered into the blessings that are presented by Paul in Ephesians, it is only because I am a member of the Body of Christ. In Ephesians the believer is not dealt with as an individual. He is dealing with the Church as a corporate body. In the first three chapters of the book of Ephesians, we have the Church as God sees her accepted, and resting in all the merits of the Lord Jesus. In the last three chapters of this book we see the Church as God desires the world to see her. There is only one way in which the unbeliever can see the Church, and that is in her walk and work. The last three chapters of Ephesians then, have to do with the believers' walk and work. There again we have presented the walk and work of a corporate group, the Church as a whole. In Ephesians 1: 4 we read,

4. "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"

Notice clearly what the Spirit of God is saying through the Apostle Paul. He is telling in this verse that before the foundation of the world, God decided He would have a church. He decided that that church would have its foundation, "in Him." This was a Sovereign act of God. He is Sovereign. He can do as He likes, and here is one of His decisions before the foundation of the world. He not only decided to have a church that He would be united with Christ, but He decided what kind of a church that Church would be, and He decided it before the foundation of the world. He wanted a church that would be without blame before Him. He wanted a church that when He looked at it, there would be nothing imperfect about it. It would not have marks of imperfections. It would be a church designed and completed by His infinite wisdom and His almighty power. The ways of God are perfect and the works of God are perfect. When He looks at that Church He does not see a flaw. It is without blame before Him. Anything that man makes, after it is made, he sees certain imperfections in it, and also room for improvement

It is not so in the Church of Christ. God created that Church as perfect, having imputed to her the perfect righteousness of the perfect Son of God. That is what God designed and desired, and also what He has brought into being concerning the Church which is His Body. God not only decided before the foundation of the world to have a church, but He also decided what kind of a church that church would be. According to Ephesians 1: 4, this was all decided before the foundation of the world. He decided that that church would be a holy church. I-wonder if we are building according to the divine blue print?

He also decided before the foundation of the world the Destination of that Church. Notice what He says in Ephesians 1:4-5

4. "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:'

5. "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,"

The divine blue print which is set forth in the book of Ephesians has in it the destiny of the Church which is His Body. He was not dealing with the individual believer in this book, but with a corporate group, known as the Church. In Ephesians 1:5 He has predestinated the Church unto the Adoption of children by Jesus Christ. God is not here deciding the Destination of individuals as individuals, but is telling us that before the foundation of the world He had decided the Destination of the Church the corporate group.

The young man who spoke to me at the close of the meeting at the Bible Conference on the matter of Predestination did not understand clearly the mind and teaching of the Spirit of God in the book of Ephesians. Nothing is more important than the studying of the Bible by Books. God never predestinated an individual to Heaven, and God never predestinated an individual to Hell; for God neither predestinates individuals to Heaven nor to Hell.

There is one exception to that statement. In the Bible, God has predestinated One outstanding individual to two places, and you will find the fact of it recorded in 1 Peter 1:11

11. "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it satisfied beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow."

The Lord Jesus was predestinated in two places. He was predestinated to suffering, and He was predestinated to the glory which should follow. Inasmuch as individuals do not come under the predestination purposes of God, we do find that God has predestinated two corporate groups in the Bible. God has predestinated one corporate group, known as Israel, to the outstanding place among the nations of the world. Then, God has predestinated another corporate group known as "the Church which is His Body." This corporate group is predestinated unto the Adoption, which means that the Church is predestinated to be Son-placed. Ephesians 1: 5.

Now if you are in the Body of Christ you are in the predestinated company. People who are predestinated are those who belong to the Body of Christ. You are predestinated the moment you are saved, because that moment you became a member of the Body of Christ. Predestination has nothing to do with going to Hell. or going to Heaven as individuals. Predestination has nothing whatsoever to do with unconverted people. It only affects believers. The words "us" and "we" in Ephesians refer to the Church which is His Body.

It is blasphemous to dare to say that God predestinates individuals to Hell. Predestination is a divine act of God whereby, God makes the goal, which is Adoption, certain for the believer. Will I be "Son-placed?" Yes, if I am a member of the Body of Jesus Christ. If I, as a believer, and a member of the Body of Christ do not arrive there, at the place of Adoption, God would be a liar. Do you see that Predestination makes Adoption certain ? Thank God for His great truth concerning the Church which is His Body.

IV. The Partners in Predestination I want you to notice another truth relative to the subject of Predestination presented in the 8th chapter of Romans, verses 28 to 30. Read these verses carefully, and as you do you will notice in verse 29 it says,

29. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

Now in verse 30 we read:

30. "Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Notice the phrase, "whom he . . . them he also;" "whom he . . . them he also;" "whom he . . . them he also." Here are the five things that God has joined together. It is a most delightful truth for the soul of any man. What God has joined together, let not man dare to try to put asunder. Five tremendous blessings are here joined together. These are the five:

1. Foreknowledge

2. Predestination

3. Calling

4. Justification

5. Sanctification

God Himself has joined together these great blessings. He so united them together that they are inseparable. No man can put them asunder. They are joined together by His sovereign wisdom and power. This verse declares it to be so: "Whom he did Predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified; and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Now if you have experienced one of these blessings you have all five of them, for they can not be separated. These are acts of the Sovereign God, and thank God for His Word that these acts to us. Do you ever stop to thank God for these five blessings? Our faith rests in the knowledge of this abounding truth for the soul, and it is refreshing to our hearts. "He Who has begun a good work in us will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ." As a child of God you do not need to worry as to whether you are predestinated or not. God has settled that in His Word as He deals with the subject of Sovereignty.

V. The Pathway that Leads to Predestination In Romans 3:28 a man is justified by faith alone. In Romans 4, we are told that man was justified by faith always. Two leaders are mentioned here in the opening of Romans 4, Abraham and David. So, you see that men of the Old Testament were justified by faith as in the New Testament. In chapter 5 we are told that justification is by faith. Romans 5: 1 says, "Therefore being justified by faith." How a man is justified is clearly stated by Paul, and the question of justification is settled.

The sinner is perfectly and fully accepted by God and justified by faith. Religion and rights are all excluded. Now, if you can come into the experience of justification by faith, you can come into the assurance that you are predestinated. Justification by faith in Christ is the pathway that leads to Predestination. Whom He justifies, them He also predestinates. If you have the blessing of justification in your soul, you also have the blessing of Predestination. The same moment that God justifies a sinner, the Spirit of God places him in the Body of Jesus Christ, and as soon as he is in the Body of Christ, he is in the divine predestinated, corporate group. It is impossible for a man to be justified and not predestinated. You can change these five blessings around and mix them up with the little phrase, "Whom he . . . them he also," and you will find that no human power and no human language can separate what God has joined together. The believing heart should continually bless God for this. God has saved the believing soul from sin, and made him a member in the Body of Christ; therefore God has pledged Himself by His sovereignty; yea, He guarantees that the Church on earth shall be the Church in Heaven. A man who has been justified by faith is in the predestined company.

How can a man be justified ? Hear the Apostle Paul telling a man how to get ready for Heaven on the shortest notice: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved." Again, hear the Apostle John in John 3:16

16. "For God so loved the world, that he gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Notice what has been preconceived for us in John 1:12

12. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

If you believe on Him you possess another life. Are you a member of the Body of Jesus Christ? You are, if you have taken Christ to be your Saviour, and you can sing from the depths of your heart, "When the roll is called up yonder, I'll be there."

Other Articles On This Site Under the Topic of Calvinism Refuted: [ Up ] [ Adoption ] [ Calvin's Error of Limited Atonement ] [ Did Christ Die For All? ] [ Election ] [ Five Point Calvinism - The Position of Fundamental Baptist World -Wide Mission ] [ Foreknowledge ] [ Predestination ] [ Problems With a Limited View of the Atonement ] [ The Death Christ Died -A Case for Unlimited Atonement-Introduction ]

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TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: calvinism; predestination
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To: xzins; Jerry_M;OrthodoxPresbyterian.CCWoody;the_doc;Matchett-PI;dittoJed2;Jean Chauvin;Wrigley...
Same word Xzins ..the same word and you know it

Strongs 4267 1Pe 1:20
4267 proginosko {prog-in-oce'-ko} from 4253 and 1097; TDNT - 1:715,119; v
AV - foreknow 2, foreordain 1, know 1, know before 1; 5
1) to have knowledge before hand
2) to foreknow
2a) of those whom God elected to salvation
3) to predestinate

Go to 1Pe 1:20
There are 5 instances of verses containing Strong's number 4267. Here they are!

Act 26:5 Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

2Pe 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Same word...foreordained..why predestinate one that is already elected??

1,541 posted on 04/29/2002 8:08:42 PM PDT by RnMomof7
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1526 | View Replies]

To: winstonchurchill
Interesting that a word like all that has both a general and group specific meaning is totally clear to you but IF seems to slip right by ya:>)
1,542 posted on 04/29/2002 8:13:44 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: fortheDeclaration,cubicle guy;whitemountain; scottiewottie;grig;Wrigley;RnMomof7;
Oh what a stretch, a Cherub has a body with wings and is not Satan. Satan has no body and is an Evil Spirit.

Read Ezek 28:14 Thou art the annointed Cherub that covereth, and I have set thee so, thou wast upon the holy mountain of God, thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the the day that was created, till iniquity was found in thee, by the multitude of thy merchandise thou has sinned, therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God, and I will destroy thee O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire (Eze.28:14-16 (See also Isa.14)

HEAVEN'S DESCENDERS-(This not LDS)

(Part 4)

( HEAVEN'S DESCENDERS )

I WILL CAST THEE TO THE GROUND
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground..." (Ezek 28:17).

Not only Isaiah 14, but also Ezekiel 28 (Verses 1-19) is another area of the scriptures people use to argue that Satan was once a beautiful angel. It is commonly said that his abode was in the vast heavens of God. Even though there is only one archangel (chief messenger), he supposedly held the exalted position of being one of three. He was a part of the hierarchy that generated eternal bliss in the expanse of heaven. He presumably led all the angels in perpetual praise and worship to God. For untold eons everything ran like a fine-tuned machine. Perfect harmony was known throughout the universe; that is, until one fateful day when he attempted to dethrone God. His quest failed, of course, and he was cast out of that lofty place. Ah, the story can be exciting, spell binding, to say the least. It affords many pulpits ample material for graphic sermons. And all would be well if it were true, but it is NOT! If we will notice, as it is with Isaiah 14, these verses are descriptive of a man rather than a spirit:

"Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord God; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I AM A GOD, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; YET THOU ART A MAN, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God." (Verse 2).

Thou art A MAN is sufficient to determine that a MAN is the subject and not a spirit, yet we will also consider a couple of other thoughts. In the statement "I AM A GOD," the word for God is EL (singular) which is ascribed to the ONE supreme God. Also, in the Hebrew text the indefinite article "a" is not present. Hence, this individual is declaring, "I AM GOD." The word for God in "I sit in the seat of GOD," is "ELOHIM" (plural); which is saying, "I sit in THE THRONE of THE GODS." He sees himself as the one who sits in the chief throne among the lesser gods/elohim. Incidently, men who judge are called elohim (Ps 82, Exo 21:6 the word for judges is often elohim).

Men are referred to as "gods" (elohim) in the Bible, but never as "God" (El), while neither of the titles were ever used to identify Satan, and we can see why: The characteristics of El and elohim are that of strong ones who can create, can weigh a situation and make a judgment, and have authority, rule and dominion over others. Both God and men have all these qualities; but Satan has never been able to create, has never stood in a place to weigh a situation and determine whether it is good or evil and then pass judgment upon it. Satan has had a certain amount of dominion over carnal man. However, that was part of the curse. He was given the dust of the earth (man) to eat all the days of his life. The point that needs to be made is that in the above verse, the individual spoken to was not the devil. He was also told he was not the God of the gods but a mere MAN -- a man that could fill the shoes of one of the elohim but not those of the El.

Due to his riches of silver and gold (which men lust after), he ascended by the winds of pride, and he set his heart as the heart of God. In his rising, he met God's fire coming down, which was in the form of the nations that defiled his brightness (Ezek 28:4-7). And the rebuke of judgment continues to the man: "Will you still say, 'I am God?' In the presence of your slayer, Although you are a MAN and not God..."(Ezek 28:9, KJV & NASB).

"...THOU SEALEST UP THE SUM...." (KJV, Verse 12), doesn't really speak to us as having any particular substance of unusual worth. However, reading it from other sources certainly sheds some valuable light on the two words sealest and sum:

Young's Analytical Concordance........ Sealest: sealed, finished.

Young's Analytical Concordance........ Sum: measurement, standard.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance... Sum: admeasurement, i.e. consummated.

Amplified Bible..... Thou art the full measure and pattern of exactness.

Companion Bible... Thou art the finished pattern (Margin).

Please note -- the one who is the SUM is the exact, finished pattern. He is a standard of measurement from which those following him would become. In other words, he was the prototype. And everyone must know that the prototype, the model, was ADAM and NOT Satan. The devil was never created to be a model for anything; but according to Genesis Adam was brought forth for this very purpose. It says, "Let us make man in our image, and after our LIKENESS..." (Gen. 1:26). The word likeness in this verse is from the Hebrew word (demuwth) which means a MODEL. The first man, therefore, was the first blueprint for all humanity. Adam was the pattern son according to the natural dust of the flesh, and the whole of humanity was molded after him. All mankind came from the assembly line of his loins.

Jesus, on the other hand (the last Adam), was and still is the last pattern (1 Tim 1:16) according to the spiritual realm of the heavens, after which all will be molded. He is the one "Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature (Col 1:15). All men followed Adam, the first, exact pattern, into death. Likewise, all men will follow the second, exact, express pattern, JESUS, into life. (ref. Heb 1:3, 1 Cor 15:45-49 & 22-28, Eph 1:9-11, and Rom 5:18).

"...FULL OF WISDOM, AND PERFECT IN BEAUTY..." (Verse 12) also points to something in man that had reached its capacity -- his shining wisdom and beauty. If his wisdom had been the wisdom of God he would never have descended by sin into a fallen state; however, having the wisdom of natural man, even in all its glory, he failed. The corruptible, as great as it was or might be, must die and give place to the incorruptible. Man will then be able to say as God did, "I change not."

Until that time comes, man will be only as good as Solomon when he penned these words, "...A man's wisdom maketh his face to shine, and the boldness of his face shall be changed" (Eccl 8:1). Solomon sees man as a shining one, or as a "lucifer." He shines with wisdom, yet can fall back into the darkness of dust.

"THOU HAST BEEN IN EDEN, THE GARDEN OF GOD..." (Verse 13a). Due to church dogma, it has been assumed this was speaking of Satan; but there is no reason to suppose such a thing. Again, it speaks of a man. Let us notice another place where it is recorded that a man, along with other men, was in the garden. Ezekiel 31 tells us of a man who is a glorious tree, one who is above all the other trees:

"...Whom art thou like in thy greatness...the water made him great, the Deep set him up on high...Therefore his height was exalted above all the trees of the field...All the fowls of heaven made their nests in his boughs, and under his branches did all the beasts of the field bring forth their young, and under his shadow dwelt all great nations...no tree in the garden of God was like unto him in his beauty. I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him. To whom art thou thus like in glory and in greatness among the trees of Eden: yet shalt thou be brought down with the trees of Eden unto the nether parts of the earth: thou shalt lie in the midst of the uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword. This is PHARAOH and all his multitude (Or can we say, this is ADAM and all his multitude?), saith the Lord God." (Parentheses supplied) (Ezek 31:2,5,6,8,9,18).

It is clear that this speaks of a man, Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he is compared to another man, his pattern, Adam. In like manner, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are admonitions and prophecies that are directed to kings, which can relate to Adam who was once in the garden of God (heaven), but fell from it when he attempted to ascend apart from God. This heavenly garden is akin to the heavens wherein we now sit in Christ Jesus, while our feet remain upon the ground.

"...EVERY PRECIOUS STONE WAS THY COVERING..." (Verse 13b). Precious stones speak of certain characteristics of men as they are manifested when the light of God passes through them. There were precious stones in the breast plate of the high priest, one for each of the twelve tribes of Israel. The priests were the mediators between God and man. When the twelve tribes were in the breast of the high priest as stones, they were sanctified, and, therefore, radiated the particular beauty of God that they were. We, today, are living stones in the breast of Christ, our High Priest.

The king of Tyrus, like Adam, possessed some of this grandeur in the day of his glory. The stones that covered the one of Ezekiel 28 could very well be typical of the people over whom Adam had dominion and was their mediator to God. If this was so, when he as their federal head fell, the whole world fell with him.

We can speculate and presume a lot of things about Adam and his obscure past, who the other trees in the garden represent, when he actually went forth to subdue the world, and who was subdued. However, one point we want to make is that precious stones are for the purpose of adorning people and not a spirit. Satan has never had a body with which to radiate and manifest the glory. If Satan wants to reveal himself in any form, the only way he can do it is through a human body, something he has never had the privilege of having. He can take over a man's soul and body, or move through a many membered body of people; but he has never had a personal body of his own. Therefore, we maintain that the one who was covered by stones in Ezekiel 28 must be a man and not a spirit called Satan.

"...THE WORKMANSHIP OF THY TABRETS AND OF THY PIPES WAS PREPARED IN THEE IN THE DAY THAT THOU WAST CREATED." (Verse 13c). This is a very interesting portion of verse 13, especially when it is translated into modern English. Using the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance it would be read this way: "...The DEPUTYSHIP, i.e. the MINISTRY of thy tabrets and of thy BEZELS, were erected and established in thee in the day that you were created."

PIPES, that is, BEZELS will be considered first. A bezel is the sloping sides of the faces of a CUT GEM, especially those of the upper half. It is also the grooved ring or rim that holds the gem in its setting. A jewel, no matter how rare or potentially beautiful it is, has virtually no value until the facets or bezels are cut into it. These bezels serve two primary purposes. They allow light to enter into the jewel's body and then reflect it outwardly after the light has gathered up its beautiful refracted colors and has joined itself and become one with them. The second function of the bezel is so the jewel can be secured into its proper place, that its beauty can be seen. Without the bezel, a stone cannot be set and will lose its usefulness for what it is intended. We as living stones are no different. We can only manifest God's glory after the bezel has been cut into our lives, and we are set as precious stones in His crown and lifted up as an ensign upon his land (Zech. 9:16).

THE JEWEL RADIATES the glory of God. This is the result of being subjected to the tools of the Master's hand. The tabret/tambourine, on the other hand, is something the servants used as a result of their inexpressible love and gratitude for their great Master. In the Bible it is recorded that the tabrets were always used when there was an exceeding amount of overflowing joy for God. Sometimes words fail to express our thanksgiving and praise we have for Him. This is when the tambourines of the spirit break forth into rejoicing that satisfies our exulting souls. Israel would always beat their tambourines when they were overwhelmed with joy after gaining victory over the enemy by the sovereign power of God. It is the same with us. When He, in His mighty strength, brings our fierce adversary to naught, and the burdensome warfare is over, a joy of victory wells up inside to the point of bursting our hearts, and the only way to find relief is to release it with singing, dancing, and playing our heart's musical instruments to the high praises of God! Hallelujah! What a glorious ministry -- A MINISTRY UNTO GOD!

TABRETS WERE PLACED IN MAN for the purpose of victorious praising after winning a battle. We can, therefore, conclude that if these tabrets had been placed in Satan it would have been for the same purpose. However, we are persuaded that he was never created to be winning any wars against anyone or anything, so there was no reason for him to be created with such an instrument of praise. MAN, however, does have an enemy to conquer; namely anything having to do with death. Every time a battle is won, the tabrets of our spirits sound the praise of victory.

Not everyone has the talent of playing musical instruments, or sounding a trumpet; but everyone can play the tabret. It is something they are born with. And at every battle-won victory, the tabret of every winner is sounded loud and clear!

WHEN ALL THE WARS ARE WON that we wage or are waged against us, we will be able to identify with the following song, and I know there are some who are already singing it: "PRAISE YE THE LORD. Sing unto the Lord a new song, and His praise in the congregation of the saints. Let Israel rejoice in Him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their king. Let them praise His name in dance: let them sing praises unto Him with the TIMBREL (same Heb. word as tabrets) and the harp. For the Lord taketh pleasure in His people: He will beautify the meek with salvation. Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth. And a two edged sword in their hand. To execute vengeance upon the people, to bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; to execute upon them the judgment written: This honour have all His saints. Praise ye the Lord" (Psa 149).

Now who do we suppose was created with the sounding tabrets that rang out the high praises of God when wars were won? Or who might it have been that had the bezel cut into his life by the Master craftsman? And again, who could have been the one that was covered with God's selected jewels of glory, bringing light as "lucifers" into the world as he radiated the beauty each stone possessed? Not Satan, dear ones, not in a million years. The answer is obvious -- it was the only one who could have had such a ministry and was the ambassador of shining glory -- ADAM! He failed, of course, to bring that light to all creation; but praise God, the last Adam, Jesus as the Word of God will never return unto Him void. He is the true LIGHT BRINGER of God, who coming into the world LIGHTS EVERY MAN (John 1:9), for He is THE FIRST BORN and MORNING STAR TO ALL CREATION. Indeed, He is the true SON OF THE MORNING who will never fail to accomplish what He was sent to do. If He does not achieve God's purpose to the full end, He is not much better than the first Adam. However, I am persuaded after the last enemy, death, is destroyed, He will return to His Father with that which He was sent to save and secure.

"THOU ART THE ANOINTED CHERUB THAT COVERETH" (Verse 14a). This particular word has probably been the most influential statement of the entire Bible when it comes to the belief that Satan was once an angel in heaven. Perhaps, the reason is due to the wide spread teaching that a cherub is an angel, even though there is not one shred of evidence to support it. When viewed through dogma-colored glasses, it may appear that a few scriptures support the supposition; but they don't. When we remove our preconceived ideas and look at them objectively, everything takes on an entirely different shape.

Cherubim are not angels -- they are the exact opposite. The purpose of cherubim have been to conceal those things which pertain to God, not to reveal them. Angels, you see, are messengers, and messengers are sent from God to reveal things, while cherubim conceal and protect them.

The word, cherub, speaks much more of a quality in man than a spirit entity outside of him. Although we know some things about the cherubim, I must confess, we do not have all the answers to (1)the mysteries of the cherubim; but I am confident that Satan has never been one. Jesus made that clear when He said that he was "A MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING" (John 8:44) -- not a cherub, but a MURDERER!

CHERUB is used in the scriptures in reference to guarding the way of life. It was designed to keep the unregenerated man of corruption from approaching unto that BEAUTIFUL TREE OF GOD -- JESUS CHRIST. He could, however, come to and eat of that tree by the prescribed way, the prescribed way of Jesus Christ, which deals tremendously with the flesh.

The first time cherubim are mentioned is in Genesis 3:24, in reference to guarding the way: "So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden cherubim to KEEP the way of the tree of life." East speaks of the soulish, natural, selfish part of man. The word KEEP is translated from the Hebrew word SHAMAR which means "TO HEDGE ABOUT, i.e. guard or PROTECT." (Strong's Exhaustive Concordance). In Ezekiel 28:14 the word covereth implies this also. It means "to entwine as a screen, to fence in, to cover over, TO PROTECT." (Strong's). We also see this illustrated in the tabernacle.

The walls of the two inner sanctuaries (the holy place and the holy of holies) had cherubim sown into them, the veil over the door to the holy of holies had cherubim sown into it, and the mercy seat had two cherubim over it also. The way back to the heart center of the garden of God (the tree of life/the ark of the covenant) was very well protected from the first man who descended from, or rather, was cast out of heaven.

The only way back into the paradise of God would be the prescribed way of God, which is through Jesus Christ. He is all the doors of the tabernacle, the sacrifice, the water of the laver for cleansing one's life, the anointing oil before entering the holy place, the oil of His Spirit in the lamp stand, the flame from the lamps, the showbread of His body, the transforming fire in the incense altar, the governing rod of Aaron that budded, the manna, and the holy laws of God. None of these, brethren, and we repeat, none of these, can be partaken of except through Jesus Christ who is the Captain of our Salvation. The Author and Finisher of our faith is the one, and only one, who can lead us each step of the way. The cherubim (imaginative figures) in the veil of the carnal mind, however, will keep men from the tree of life.

Everything we read and know about the cherubim speaks of something in man himself which keeps him from the pleasures of God until his journey is found in and through Jesus Christ. But nowhere, do we find that it even remotely hints Satan was ever a cherub. Therefore, we see Ezekiel 28:14 is speaking of a man rather than Satan.

"...THOU WAST UPON THE HOLY MOUNTAIN OF GOD..." (Verse 14b). Mountains in scripture are symbolic of kingdoms upon the earth, whether that of God or man. In this case, we see the kingdom as being God's with Adam having dominion over it. However, when he was no longer worthy to rule, after he had placed himself under the ruling influence of the serpent of the field, he was removed from that holy Kingdom of God, the Garden of Eden. His dominion of life which would have brought the Garden to all creation was changed to death. Rather than the river of life flowing from its base came the river of death (Jordan) to all mankind (for more on this mountain of life and death see Pub.#58, free upon request).

"...THOU HAST WALKED UP AND DOWN IN THE MIDST OF THE STONES OF FIRE." (Verse 14c). Walking UP and DOWN, especially in the Hebrew, speaks of two dimensions of life -- heavenly and earthly. Before one can walk circumspectly in the earth and make a godly impact therein, he must first walk up, and then he can walk down. We see this in Jacob's dream and the ladder reaching into heaven with God ruling over it.

The first walk is high and elevated (up). The second is low, a position of humility. It is in the earth (down). Every Son of God must walk not only up, but also down before deliverance is seen in the world. There is no other way for humanity to be born into the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom must drop down with Heaven's Descenders. The City from above must descend into the earth before salvation for all begins to be seen on a wide scale.

At one time the king/Adam had everything as he ruled among the stones of fire; but because of submitting to the temptation of I WILL BECOME, and this was independent from God, he was cast down and lost it all. He became a lowly creature of sweat and tears and death. He was cast down, and he remained down, never again to walk upward, as least, not until Jesus made the Way.

"THOU WAST PERFECT IN THY WAYS FROM THE DAY THAT THOU WAST CREATED, TILL INIQUITY WAS FOUND IN THEE." (Verse 15). Yes, indeed, Adam was perfect in all facets of his life. This lasted until he was found to be cunningly subtle, crafty, like the serpent who had beguiled the woman. And I say this because of the single meaning of the two Hebrew words naked and subtle. The word naked in Genesis 2:25 -- "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed" -- is the same Hebrew word aruwm as Genesis 3:1 (E.W. Bullinger's notes in the Companion Bible). "Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field...." (aruwm). Of course, they had no idea such a crafty thing lay dormant within their own souls. Notwithstanding, it was there, and in the darkness of their cunning character, they both said, "I am God, I will ascend." Afterwards, of course, and in shame, they attempted to cover their naked subtlety by sowing fig leaves together, which is with us to this day. Man has covered his cunning carnality with great church buildings, tall steeples, stained glass windows, creeds, doctrines, ordinances, ceremonies, rituals, robes, miters, programs, laws and bylaws, you name it and they have it and have done it. Man has sown religious facades together to cover their stark nakedness; but all these holy looking things are nothing but fig leaves that will eventually dry up, crumble to nothing, and be blown away by the holy wind and breath of God's fiery Spirit.

"By THE MULTITUDE OF THY MERCHANDISE they have filled the midst of thee with violence (unjust gain, Heb.), and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire" (Verse 16). We can see this is typical of man. There are no other creatures who merchandise. The multitude of their unjust gain makes ruthless, selfish, demanding, proud, self-serving, arrogant men in sheep's clothing. They have erred greatly. These are the ones, we suppose, to whom God has sent strong delusion to believe a lie (2 Thes 2:11). They are much like the one of Isaiah 14:17 who "opened not the house of his prisoners." They seem to go out of their way to teach lies that will keep people from being free. Many are charlatans to say the least. I have tried to keep an open mind and look at them as rebellious brothers who will be corrected by our Father, but the more I meditate upon it the more I believe most of these men are of their father the devil, as Jesus so firmly identified the religious Pharisees of that day. And please know, brethren, I do not speak of those who have laid down their lives for those they minister to.

"THOU HAST DEFILED THY SANCTUARIES by the multitude of thine iniquities... therefore will I bring fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee." (Verse 18). God has created in man three distinct sanctuaries for the purpose of cohabitation -- SPIRIT, SOUL, and BODY, and they are typified in the tabernacle. They are the holy of holies, the holy place and the outer court. Adam defiled these sanctuaries when he submitted to the temptations of the lust of the eye, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. Satan, however, was never created with any sanctuaries; therefore, with him there were none to defile. Man alone has been set apart and blessed with such honors of being a holy sanctuary for God's habitation. Jesus said, "...He dwelleth with you, and shall be IN YOU." (John 14:17).

When God's habitation was defiled, He promised a burning, cleansing, transforming fire for Adam, who was the house of God. He will not live in a defiled house full of dust and dirt. We see a beautiful type to this fire in the sacrificial altar of the outer court and the altar of incense. The latter was usually in the second sanctuary, but once a year it was taken into the holy of holies and burned before the ark of the covenant. Each realm of man has its season for purification. These same fires of Christ's presence within the heart of man's bosom will purge, destroy, and consume every faction of carnality that might be in him. John the Baptist said it very well when he said of Jesus -- "He shall baptize you with the holy ghost, and with FIRE: Whose fan is in His hand, and He will thoroughly purge His floor...He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable FIRE" (Mat 3:11-12). Also, Jesus said, "Everyone shall be salted with FIRE" (Mark 9:49). After this fire of brimstone has left nothing but ashes, man will lament, but only for a season, for God will be faithful, as He promised to Israel, and "give unto them beauty for ashes" (Isa 61:3).

"All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and NEVER SHALT THOU BE ANY MORE." (Verse 19). If the latter part of this verse, "...and never shalt thou be any more," is referring to Satan, then there must be something done about some traditional tenets. Namely, that Satan will either be the caretaker over hell throughout eternity, or he will be burning there throughout eternity. Either way, he would be eternally alive and very much in existence according to this unsupported, yet accepted belief. However, verse 19 informs the reader that something is to NEVER BE ANY MORE. That which we see as never being after the fire has been applied is the first Adam along with his flammable carnal, rebellious, I will nature. Even the desire, the avenue to sin, will have been removed and destroyed to never be traveled again. That crooked broadway will be no more. The Psalmist wrote, "...THE WAY of the ungodly WILL PERISH." (Psa 1:6).

Our conclusion in the matter of the famed LUCIFER REBELLION is not of a war Satan waged against God eons ago. It speaks of MAN'S REBELLION! It stemmed from man being tempted by Satan; but it is not Satan who is Lucifer. Moreover, the only war in heaven Satan has ever known has been in the heavens of man. It is a war that is going on right now in the lives and minds of godly men and women everywhere. A good reference for this is found in Revelation 12. Yet, we must not assume the victories are for another day; for with many, it is finished, the dragon and his angels have been cast down, the battles are over, and the war has been won!

With this understanding, let our pure minds be riveted with the bold truth that the Latin word, LUCIFER, meaning SHINING ONE, is not referring to Satan at all. Let us know that it is descriptive of ADAM. Therefore, knowing this, we should refrain from giving credit and glory to the very one who deserves it the least, which is the dust eating serpent. We should never honor him by saying he was ever a shining angel of light. For he has always been the waster, the destroyer, the prince of darkness, a liar and murderer from his beginning.

MAN, however, is the one who has been all the things of which Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 speak. ADAM/LUCIFER, was the resident of Eden, the beautiful one, the prince of God, even the shining cherub among the stones of fire. He was in Eden, the Garden of God, in Paradise, in Heaven, ruling from the Mountain of God. He was among the Stones of fire -- shining with the glory of his Creator. Even so, it was in a pale light, for he was only a model of the finished product. But we, praise God, see Jesus the true SHINING ONE! He is coming forth with the awesome splendor of all those things and more, and of the increase of His government and peace there shall be no end!

In conclusion, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 speak of two men, the king of Babylon and the king of Tyrus. These two areas of scripture are not referring to Satan, but to specific men. In the spiritual sense, each king could be typified as Adam; for he fits all the criteria listed. He was in the height of glory until iniquity was found in him when he said in his heart, "I AM GOD, and I WILL ASCEND!"

To be continued... Elwin R. Roach -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Home | Pathfinder Directory | Elwin's Directory | Margit's Directory | Kingdom Links To be placed on our mailing list to receive our studies in booklet form, write to: The Pathfinder Elwin & Margit Roach PO Box 4004 Alamogordo, NM 88311-4004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 1. Secrets of the Cherubim Or order the five part series by writing to the address below.

1,543 posted on 04/29/2002 8:14:02 PM PDT by restornu
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To: restornu
"With this understanding, let our pure minds be riveted with the bold truth that the Latin word, LUCIFER, meaning SHINING ONE, is not referring to Satan at all. Let us know that it is descriptive of ADAM."

====

Yeah, you guys are Christians all right!

1,544 posted on 04/29/2002 8:16:29 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7
believe it speaks to the ability to find the door and hear the voice.

Yup. Remembering, of course, that this is a metaphorical "door" to a metaphorical "heart" and a metphorical "voice" and a metaphorical "hearing apparatus" (it is neither a cardiological aperture for which we must crack open our own chest cavity and rummage around nor an auditory receptor which must receive and process auditory vibrations generated by physcial vocal cords).

Yes, we do have to be able to "find" the metaphorical "door" to our metaphorical "heart" and then we have to metaphorically "pry" open the metaphorical "door" to that metaphorical "heart" and then we have to metaphorically "hear" the metaphorical "voice" of the King of Kings. Oh ya, that's a lotta metaphorical "work". Surely you jest. Have you redoubled your effort after having forgotten your aim?

1,545 posted on 04/29/2002 8:17:14 PM PDT by winstonchurchill
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To: RnMomof7; zshhh; fortheDeclaration; drstevej; Winston Churchill; Corin Stormhands;
Well, Rnnie, your study is ridiculous. It is opposed by EVERY single translation of the text that exists in English. It comes up with the bizarre rendering, "those he foreordained he foreordained..." Come on, wake up and smell the coffee.

It reminds me of the Reagan campaign when he kept talking about "state's rights." The liberals blasted him for using "code words." They said "state's rights is a code word for anti-black." Reagan, in his typical humorous fashion said something like, "Well, please tell me what the code word is for 'state's rights' and I'll use that."

When, in your study, does the word "foreknow" get to mean FOREKNOW. That is a word, you know, that the Greeks USED. You tell me the code word for "foreknow" and I'll pass it on to God so he can put it in the next edition of the greek text.

1,546 posted on 04/29/2002 8:18:04 PM PDT by xzins
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To: xzins
xzins -- Just curious, to what extent do you know Greek?
1,547 posted on 04/29/2002 8:26:41 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: xzins
Hey ya may not like it ..but it was straight from Strongs.
1,548 posted on 04/29/2002 8:27:28 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: drstevej
I am a traducianist.

Steve, what you're saying is that the soul had no existence prior to the union of the parents. I knew you had to believe that.

One doesn't have a relationship with one who does not exist in any real capacity. Even a husband, knowing that his wife will potentially have his children, and being certain of that, does not have a "relationship" with his children. He might yearn for them, and love the thought of them, and imagine being a parent to them, but all of these words are ANTICIPATORY of a reality.

When the reality comes to pass THAT is when the relationship has substance.

1,549 posted on 04/29/2002 8:33:07 PM PDT by xzins
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To: drstevej;white mountain ;cubicle guy;scottiewottie
Yeah, you guys are Christians all right!

I have come to the conclusion that your rage and contempt for us LDS has made you blind and dumb! If you read it instead of reacting like all of you defensive Calvin’s do. You’re so squirmy that you chew another head off, for not once in all honesty have any of you truly read and ponder over what we have posted. You are so busy looking for your next TALKING POINTS!

HEAVEN'S DESCENDERS-(This not LDS) (Part 4)

( HEAVEN'S DESCENDERS )

I WILL CAST THEE TO THE GROUND
"Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground..." (Ezek 28:17).

1,550 posted on 04/29/2002 8:35:56 PM PDT by restornu
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To: xzins
JEREMIAH 1:5

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

====

Feel the sweat breakin' out?

1,551 posted on 04/29/2002 8:36:37 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: restornu
Resty. Tell you what. Since you are obviously distraught with me, I hereby bequeath your pastoral care to RnMom. She will show you the path.
1,552 posted on 04/29/2002 8:40:15 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: RnMomof7
Oops, forgot to bump your guide.
1,553 posted on 04/29/2002 8:40:59 PM PDT by drstevej
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To: restornu
In conclusion, Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 speak of two men, the king of Babylon and the king of Tyrus. These two areas of scripture are not referring to Satan, but to specific men. In the spiritual sense, each king could be typified as Adam; for he fits all the criteria listed. He was in the height of glory until iniquity was found in him when he said in his heart, "I AM GOD, and I WILL ASCEND!"

No man who ever lived matched the description given in Eze.28:13.

The fact that it goes back and forth between Satan and the rulers of Babylon and Tyrus is because he controled those two men, as he will control the AntiChrist in the future (Rev.12-13, 2Thess.2:8-9)

1,554 posted on 04/29/2002 8:41:03 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: xzins
Well, Rnnie, your study is ridiculous. It is opposed by EVERY single translation of the text that exists in English. It comes up with the bizarre rendering, "those he foreordained he foreordained..." Come on, wake up and smell the coffee

LOL! If the scripture doesn't fit make it! (2Pet.3:16)

1,555 posted on 04/29/2002 8:44:33 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: Wrigley
Must of missed the memo.

Meaning?

1,556 posted on 04/29/2002 8:48:26 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: drstevej; fortheDeclaration; zshhh; corin stormhands; winston churchill
5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”

Steve, nothing there except knowledge and plan. No relationship with a non-existent person. (Son, before you were born I had great plans for you; I started this college fund for you; same seminary/law school/medical school that I attended.)

Not only am I not sweating, I've had to put on a coat and shut the windows.

1,557 posted on 04/29/2002 8:50:13 PM PDT by xzins
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To: fortheDeclaration
Just by omission talks like this testify that many books were lost or destroyed for they conficted with other agenda so we a tiny glimpsy of a situation and the rest is missing I love the ONT and am so frustrated with those who have tampered with it!!!!!

I agree it is the spirit of evil, but Satan was no Cherub that's all I am saying and it would be nice had we the other scriptures that your lovely group thought was not necessary to us folks here in 2002 AD, and so far away from the history of these things.

1,558 posted on 04/29/2002 8:52:53 PM PDT by restornu
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To: xzins
Are you saying that when God thinks of a duck that one drops out of the sky? Of course God can think of things without their becoming reality.

Ofcourse, God can think of things that never happened (Matt.11:21) and things can happen that never even came into God's mind (His intentions)

...I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin (Jer.32:35)

1,559 posted on 04/29/2002 8:56:41 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration
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To: restornu
"With this understanding, let our pure minds be riveted with the bold truth that the Latin word, LUCIFER, meaning SHINING ONE, is not referring to Satan at all. Let us know that it is descriptive of ADAM."

Is there anything in the Bible that supports that?

1,560 posted on 04/29/2002 9:00:00 PM PDT by RnMomof7
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