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Regarding the Sins of Catholics, and a Paradigm Shift in Catholic Apologetics
Dr. Brian Kopp

Posted on 04/08/2002 5:52:41 PM PDT by Brian Kopp DPM

Why can't people see the big picture? Christian sexuality is simple...if you're not married, man and woman, in the eyes of God, and/or you can't get pregnant doing it, its wrong. That's Natural Law in a nutshell re sex. That's what God made it for.

Here's a little illustration. If you eat something just for the pleasure of the taste and the texture, then vomit it up, that is called an eating disorder, namely bulimia. It is a disorder because the reason God gave us food is twofold, 1) for our pleasure, and more importantly 2) for the nourishment of our bodies.

If you partake of sex, then vomit forth the natural consequences of that act, it is a disorder, like sexual bulimia. Yes, God made it for pleasure. Equally important, God made it for babies.

The Creation of God serves ONE primary purpose:

the creation of the body and eternal soul of men. Man's last end is God. It was God's first and foremost desire in Creating the universe that men should live forever with Him in Heaven.

And what is scripture's first commandment? It ain't in the Decalogue. It comes much earlier, and it says, "Be Fruitful and Multiply."

If that's what Creation was for, the populating of Heaven with Eternal Souls of men, why can't Christians comprehend what a rebellion and revolt non-procreative sex is?

What do all the sexual sins in the Old Testament have in common?

They are all non-procreative, and/or outside of a covenantal man-woman relationship. They are all a fundamental violation of Natural Law, a violation of the reason God gave us our sexuality, i.e., for the creation of Eternal Souls to populate Heaven.

Only Catholicism still sees this foundational Truth, this family covenantal model. We are here to get THERE, to Heaven. And to bring as many there as possible.

And until 1930, all of Christianity understood this, all of Christianity embraced this, and all of Christianity taught this, universally (see below), protestant, orthodox, Catholic, as well as orthodox judaism and islam.

But if you start teaching that one form of non-procreative sex is OK, while others are not, you introduce schizophrenia into Christian sexual morality.

If you accept one, you no longer have any grounds to condemn the rest.

And no one can contest the relationship between the acceptance of contraception by Christians in this once Christian country, and the legalization of abortion (see below).

Today, equal numbers of RCC and NC Christians contracept.

But there is one vital distinction.

Scripture says that in the end there will be a general falling away, so it should surprise no one that there is gross sin in all churches.

But Christ promised one Church, His Church, would not teach error, and that the gates would not prevail.

Absolute Orthodoxy in moral theology can only come from Absolute Orthodoxy in Salvific Theology. Heterodoxy in Moral Theology will always, eventually, arise from Heterodoxy in Salvific Theology.

If Catholics will reclaim the traditional teaching of Christianity on contraception, a teaching their Church has NEVER apostacized on, and evangelize the culture regarding WHY the Church still teaches it, then we have at our disposal the single greatest evangelization tool in the history of the war between Christian sects. Why? Because Catholicism has never fallen into heterodoxy on moral theology issues. ALL other Christian churches now have.

It is so easy to prove from history that Christianity always uninanimously taught contraception to be inherently evil (see below, Appendix 2). Then it is such a short step to understand that heterodoxy in moral theology completely undermines the validity of the sola scriptura/personal interpretation of scripture manntra that hatched that heterodoxy. This is the foregone conclusion when men reject the authority Christ gave His Church, and replces it with the doctrines of men.

This is the number one reason given why over a thousand protestant ministers have become Catholic over the last ten years. When you examine the culture of death, and the roots of abortion, and the inability to effectively fight the homosexual juggernaut, you realize very quickly there is only one Church that will both bring folks closest to Christ and cure the ills of the culture.

I'm not willing to avoid the contraception issue because its unpopular, taboo, or for fear of offending both Catholic and protestant alike, when this is the single greatest evangelization/apologetics tool ever handed to us on a silver platter by the Holy Spirit.

Plus the obvious...folks who live in sodomitic sin glass houses, where the same type of sin is not only tolerated but taught to be acceptable, better stop to think before they criticize the sodomitic sin in our Catholic ranks, especially when we are the only ones condemning both on the world stage.

Yes, there are sodomites in the Catholic priesthood, and bishops hid them and protected them. They violate the very foundations of sexual morality that the Church STILL TEACHES today.

But the remainder of Christianity has embraced the sodomitic sin of contraception, teaches it as acceptable, and refuses to turn back.

In the end, many on both sides have sinned, are sinning, and will sin. But only one Church perseveres in Truth, both in Salvation Theology and Moral Theology.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: abortionlist; catholiclist; christianlist; prolife
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To: sinkspur
Terror works with children. I don't use it on adults.

Although I can understand your pragmatic, jaded, "seen-it-all-done-it-all" attitude towards this topic, I couldn't help but be reminded of a biblical passage at your mention of the word "terror" -- the words of St. Paul, where he talks about working out his salvation in "fear and trembling."

If you wont' answer my other question, at least tell me if you dispute these facts:

Fact 1: Cohabitating before marriage is a mortal sin.

Fact 2: A single mortal sin, unrepented, will damn someone to hell for all of eternity.

61 posted on 04/08/2002 9:23:39 PM PDT by Proud2BAmerican
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To: goldenstategirl
All I've seen is personal opinion and twisting of belief to justify words of blasphemy and insult against the mother of Jesus Christ.

I'm gonna call you on this one. What was blasphemous about it? Sex between a married couple is a gift of God and an ordained union which God said he commands. Your teaching seems to be the one which calls Mary into question, not mine. If you can't comprehend this, have somebody explain it to you, I've already tried.

62 posted on 04/08/2002 9:23:58 PM PDT by Iowegian
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To: Proud2BAmerican
Thanks for the heads up. I guess when individuals have already made up their minds about something no amount of Scriptural validation is going to open a closed mind.
63 posted on 04/08/2002 9:25:41 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: sinkspur
I don't terrorize children. I'm sorry if your mother did. There are plenty of ways to teach children appropriate behavior without resorting to terrorizing them.
64 posted on 04/08/2002 9:27:39 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Proud2BAmerican
So you do think it's a good idea to withold the truth of the gravity of their situations?

People who are cheating on their spouses, or embezzling money, or beating their wives know they're doing wrong. I try to get them to see what they're doing to themselves RIGHT NOW, as human beings.

That usually works.

65 posted on 04/08/2002 9:29:33 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Iowegian
1)You still have not asked me a specific question about Mary. You are still telling me what I believe.

2)I believe we both comprehend what's going on here and it has nothing to do with having an open minded discussion. If in the future you wish to have one, I'd be happy to oblige.

66 posted on 04/08/2002 9:32:01 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: Proud2BAmerican
If you wont' answer my other question, at least tell me if you dispute these facts:

Fact 1: Cohabitating before marriage is a mortal sin.

Yes.

Fact 2: A single mortal sin, unrepented, will damn someone to hell for all of eternity.

Yes.

But when I talk to engaged couples, I try what works.

Threatening with hell just doesn't work for me.

Maybe it does with you.

67 posted on 04/08/2002 9:33:59 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: goldenstategirl
I believe we both comprehend what's going on here and it has nothing to do with having an open minded discussion.

I agree, your mind is not open to anything other than the party line, so it is not a discussion.

68 posted on 04/08/2002 9:35:09 PM PDT by Iowegian
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To: sinkspur
I meant not telling the truth to couples who were co-habitating (a mortal sin)? Do you think it's a good idea that they not be aware that it's a mortal sin, and that they will go to hell if they don't repent and turn away from it? Or do you think it better to withold this truth from them, and give the impression that the Catholic Church condones such behavior?
69 posted on 04/08/2002 9:36:04 PM PDT by Proud2BAmerican
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To: goldenstategirl
You still have not asked me a specific question about Mary.

I asked what was blasphemous about my post and you haven't answered it. What, no facts here either?

70 posted on 04/08/2002 9:37:31 PM PDT by Iowegian
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To: goldenstategirl
With all due respect, where did I hurl insults?

BigMack

71 posted on 04/08/2002 9:38:45 PM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Iowegian
You have not asked me a specific question about Mary. You are consistently changing the focus and ridiculing, which is a common fundamentalist debating tactic. Now, do you have a specific question or are we going to continue to play games?
72 posted on 04/08/2002 9:40:55 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain;Iowegian
Since this is obviously pointless, I'll just say I'll pray for both of you to awaken to the Light of Christ and we'll just leave it at that. I have better things to do than play games with the two of you.
73 posted on 04/08/2002 9:43:48 PM PDT by Canticle_of_Deborah
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To: goldenstategirl
Now, do you have a specific question or are we going to continue to play games?

I'm not playing games you are avoiding questions. You said I posted blasphemy and told you what you believe, so what did I say you believed that you don't believe? And what was blasphemous?

74 posted on 04/08/2002 9:43:54 PM PDT by Iowegian
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To: sinkspur
But when I talk to engaged couples, I try what works.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by it "working"? By that, I mean, what constitutes the experience being a success: the couple proceeding with the formal, official Catholic marriage? Is that the determination of success? (Or conversely, a couple who, after going through the preparation process, determine that they are ill-suited for marriage, and so break up -- would that be considered a success?)

75 posted on 04/08/2002 9:45:40 PM PDT by Proud2BAmerican
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To: goldenstategirl
When you pray, remember there is only one mediator between man and God, Jesus. No saints, no priests, no Mary.
76 posted on 04/08/2002 9:46:45 PM PDT by Iowegian
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To: Proud2BAmerican
I meant not telling the truth to couples who were co-habitating (a mortal sin)? Do you think it's a good idea that they not be aware that it's a mortal sin, and that they will go to hell if they don't repent and turn away from it? Or do you think it better to withold this truth from them, and give the impression that the Catholic Church condones such behavior?

I tell them that the Church doesn't condone living together; that it violates the sacredness of the sexual relationship, which is proper only in marriage. I also tell them, as I said before, that sex may be all there is to their relationship and it would be a shock to realize that after they took marriage vows.

I suggest that you volunteer to work with engaged couples in your parish, then you can talk about hell in a "loving, caring way" to your heart's content.

I use what works. Threatening people with hell doesn't work, for me.

77 posted on 04/08/2002 9:46:48 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Proud2BAmerican
Can you elaborate on what you mean by it "working"? By that, I mean, what constitutes the experience being a success: the couple proceeding with the formal, official Catholic marriage? Is that the determination of success? (Or conversely, a couple who, after going through the preparation process, determine that they are ill-suited for marriage, and so break up -- would that be considered a success?)

What "works" is what I can have a conversation about with the couple.

Talk about hell usually ends the discussion.

In most cases, the couple proceed with the marriage; in a few, they decide, after much discussion, primarily using the results from the questionnaires they fill out, to break up.

78 posted on 04/08/2002 9:52:39 PM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur
I use what works. Threatening people with hell doesn't work, for me.

Threatening people with hell..."slamming" people with mortal sin. Reading the way you re-phrase the teachings of Catholicism makes it seem as though you believe this particular truth of Catholicism as something awful, outdated, out-moded, Medieval and cruel?

It's truth, right? And, judging from the possible consequences, it's a pretty essential truth, right? But somewhere between an essential truth and pre-marital counseling, it suddenly becomes something that would be mean, judgmental, insensitive and therefore it's inadvisable to let people know that they are toeing the line of Hell, lest they think that the Catholic Church isn't with it.

Have you ever tried explaining the risks and consequences of their actions, according to Catholicism? Or has your method worked 100 percent of the time from the very first time you ever performed this service, and so you've never had the need or curiousity to try educating these people on the faith that they're marrying within? Do you care, one way or the other, whether or not they know it's a mortal sin? Do you care, one way or the other, whether or not they stop this mortal sin? Do you think they are in danger of hell? Or do you think that, technically, yes it's the official teaching of the Catholic Church that they are committing mortal sin, but really, in God's eyes, it's not that big of a deal, and they just don't know any better, and you are sure that it has no affect on their salvation, and their actions are doing zero harm to the state of their souls and the measure of grace within them?

79 posted on 04/08/2002 10:01:29 PM PDT by Proud2BAmerican
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To: Iowegian
No saints, no priests, no Mary.

But there are many intercessors, like St. Paul, who said that he intercedes with his prayers. And like friends who pray for you, who intercede on your behalf, in imitation of St. Paul.

80 posted on 04/08/2002 10:03:03 PM PDT by Proud2BAmerican
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