No, Allan Patrick Boyd's thesis is dealing with Historical Pre-Millenialism. It is Boyd's, who is Pre-Millenial, conlusion that Historical Pre-Millenialsim was ~not~ the authoritive view of the ante-nicene church. My point regarding Ryrie is this: Ryrie at one point held the similar view as you do -that Pre-Millenialism was the dominant view of the early church. But because of Boyd's work, Ryrie has been convinced that this is not true. In other words, Boyd's study lead him to conlclude that Pre-Millenialism was actually the minority viewpoint -I'm just noting that Ryrie now concurs to lend credibility to Mr. Boyd's work. Mr. Boyd's work has nothing to do with the Dispensational Pre-Millenial monster.
"Moreover, as for Premillennialism being only found in the 19th century, it was reawakened in the 17th century,"
No, Historical Pre-Millenialsim has been found throughout the early church. Dispenasational Pre-Millenialism is the unheard of doctrine which infected the churches 1800 years after Christ's first coming.
"Again, the issue was not historical dispensationalism but Premillennialism."
Yes, I know. However, it is Mr. Walvoords intentions to link Dispensational Pre-Millenialism -which is his theology- to Historical Pre-Millenialism. And that is highly disengenuous.
"Moreover, Ryrie was not the one I was citing, Walvoord was."
your point being?
"I gave you the historical evidence, you give me a MA Thesis that is addressing dispensationalism not Premillennialism and I'm the one who is dishonest?"
yes, I gave you evidence, but as is your tendancy, you simply dismiss any evidence which disagrees with your position.
And help me out here, the fact that Boyd's work is a masters thesis affects the accuracy of his facts by.......???? What does the fact that Boyd discovered this during his research for his Master's Thesis? Are the facts of a Master's Thesis somehow less true than for a doctrinal thesis -or even less true than from a Theologian who received his doctorate 30 years ago? I don't get it. Is the fact that Boyd's work is a Master's Thesis somehow prove it is wrong? Help me out here.
"There isn't proof? I showed you quotes from different authors including Justin Martyr!"
You showed me one quote from one Pre-Millenialist -and this proves your case that Per-Millenialism was the dominant view of the early church how????
"Well, the 'last trump' could easily mean the final one in a series, not the final one ever sounded. We have trumpets being sounded in Revelation (Rev.8:2)."
If 1 Cor 15:51 declares that we will be raised and changed "At the Last Trump" -period. No need to go any further. The Last Trump is the last trumpet! (next you'll probably try to tell me it's the "last trump" -not the "last trumpet") We need not try to add thoughts to this passage, for it is quite clear. No more trumpets after the last trumpet. -it doesn't say anything a series or whatever -it simply says "the last trump"
So -until you can tell me that "the last trump" is indeed the "last trump" as 1 Cor 15 declares without a doubt -your claim of 'literalism' falls on deaf ears.
"Yes, the spiritual kingdom is real (the Kingdom of God) and so will be the Kingdom of Heaven be real also, a physical Kingdom with The Lord Jesus Christ ruling as the Son of God on the Throne of David "
He already is on his throne and currently ruling (Matt 28:18, 1 Cor 15:25, Romans 15:12)
The Kingdom of God ~is~ the Kingdom of Heaven
Matthew 13:11
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.
Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Luke 8:10
And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand.
_____________________
Matthew 11:11-12
I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. {12} From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.
Luke 7:28
For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Jean
Nothing in the posts you sent me had to do with Premillennialism, but with Dispensationalism. If Boyd wanted to take on the idea of Premillennialism he would have to address Walvoords work not Ryries and espically Peters. As for Ryrie who you state accepted Boyd's thesis, I cannot find it on the link that you gave me and I do not have the time to 'look for it'
Moreover, as for Premillennialism being only found in the 19th century, it was reawakened in the 17th century," No, Historical Pre-Millenialsim has been found throughout the early church. Dispenasational Pre-Millenialism is the unheard of doctrine which infected the churches 1800 years after Christ's first coming.
First, I gave you a quote from a work. Two, it is clear you are now trying to wiggle out of the fact that you have been proven wrong! You are not addressing what I was saying but are setting up a straw man. So you concede that Pre-Millennialism was found in the early church (not Amillennialism)
Again, the issue was not historical dispensationalism but Premillennialism." Yes, I know. However, it is Mr. Walvoords intentions to link Dispensational Pre-Millenialism -which is his theology- to Historical Pre-Millenialism. And that is highly disengenuous.
Why you phony! This has nothing to do with what Walvoord is doing, but my postion that historically Premillennialism was the early view of the church. I did not say they were strong dispensationalists, only that they believed in a literal return of Christ to set up His real Kingdom for a thousand years. This was opposed to the Amillennial view that no Millennial kindom would be set up. It was you who stated that Premillennialism had not 'historical basis'
"Moreover, Ryrie was not the one I was citing, Walvoord was." your point being?
The point is, Walvoord is dealing with the Historical Premillenial view not Ryrie.
"I gave you the historical evidence, you give me a MA Thesis that is addressing dispensationalism not Premillennialism and I'm the one who is dishonest?" yes, I gave you evidence, but as is your tendancy, you simply dismiss any evidence which disagrees with your position.
You gave me evidence dealing with dispensational Premillennialism, not historical Premillennialism which you conceded to above.
And help me out here, the fact that Boyd's work is a masters thesis affects the accuracy of his facts by.......???? What does the fact that Boyd discovered this during his research for his Master's Thesis? Are the facts of a Master's Thesis somehow less true than for a doctrinal thesis -or even less true than from a Theologian who received his doctorate 30 years ago? I don't get it. Is the fact that Boyd's work is a Master's Thesis somehow prove it is wrong? Help me out here.
A unpublished masters thesis (that I do not have access to) is not going to undo works such as Peters, The Theocratic Kingdom, with its massive evidence. It might raise questions but it is not researched enough to handle the necessary questions.
"There isn't proof? I showed you quotes from different authors including Justin Martyr!" You showed me one quote from one Pre-Millenialist -and this proves your case that Per-Millenialism was the dominant view of the early church how????
I showed you Barnarbas (which you source said was not Premillennial) I showed you Martyr who your source also said was not Premillennial. What I showed you ws that your source was a farce! He starts off quoting Eusbius! Gives no evidence at all, just asserts and moves on. Must be an Amillennial trait.
"Well, the 'last trump' could easily mean the final one in a series, not the final one ever sounded. We have trumpets being sounded in Revelation (Rev.8:2)." If 1 Cor 15:51 declares that we will be raised and changed "At the Last Trump" -period. No need to go any further. The Last Trump is the last trumpet! (next you'll probably try to tell me it's the "last trump" -not the "last trumpet") We need not try to add thoughts to this passage, for it is quite clear. No more trumpets after the last trumpet. -it doesn't say anything a series or whatever -it simply says "the last trump"
You know you really ought to start reading your Bible a little more, instead of those useless Creeds. A Trump does not have to be a Trumpet it could also be a voice I was in the spirit on the Lords day, and heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet'(Rev.1:10)
"Yes, the spiritual kingdom is real (the Kingdom of God) and so will be the Kingdom of Heaven be real also, a physical Kingdom with The Lord Jesus Christ ruling as the Son of God on the Throne of David " He already is on his throne and currently ruling (Matt 28:18, 1 Cor 15:25, Romans 15:12)
He is? I read that in Psa. 110 it is the Father ruling not the Son,
The Lord said unto my Lord sit at my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstoolIt is true that the Lord has 'all power' (Matt.28) and the Keys of Hell and Death (Rev.1:8) but right now in this dispensation it is the Father who is bringing this part of history to the close.
And he said unto them it is not for you to know the times or the seasons which the Father hath put in his own power (Acts.1:7)
The Kingdom of God ~is~ the Kingdom of Heaven Matthew 13:11 He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Mark 4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: Luke 8:10 And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Matthew 11:11-12 I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. {12} From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been forcefully advancing, and forceful men lay hold of it.Luke 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
Well, that was a meanlingless 'cut and paste' job. Not even a comment to explain it. That is the extent of your 'scholarship'.
There say I unto you, the Kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Matt.22:43)Thus, the Lord took away Israel's chance to be the Spritual kingdom (the Kingdom of God-Rom.14:7) but did not take away from them the Kingdom of Heaven! That was unconditional (Psa.89)
The kingdom of God is to be distinguished from the kingdom of heaven (See Scofield "Matthew 3:2") , in five respects: (1) The kingdom of God is universal, including all moral intelligences willingly subject to the will of God, whether angels, the Church, or saints of past or future dispensations Luke 13:28,29; Hebrews 12:22,23 while the kingdom of heaven is Messianic, mediatorial, and Davidic, and has for its object the establishment of the kingdom of God in the earth (See Scofield "Matthew 3:2") 1 Corinthians 15:24,25. (2) The kingdom of God is entered only by the new birth John 3:3,5-7 the kingdom of heaven, during this age, is the sphere of a profession which may be real or false. (See Scofield "Matthew 13:3") Matthew 25:1,11,12 (3) Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have almost all things in common. For this reason many parables and other teachings are spoken of the kingdom of heaven in Matthew, and of the kingdom of God in Mark and Luke. It is the omissions which are significant. The parables of the wheat and tares, and of the net Matthew 13:24-30,36-43,47-50 are not spoken of the kingdom of God. In that kingdom there are neither tares nor bad fish. But the parable of the leaven Matthew 13:33 is spoken of the kingdom of God also, for, alas, even the true doctrines of the kingdom are leavened with the errors of which the Pharisees, Sadducees, and the Herodians were the representatives. (See Scofield "Matthew 13:33") . (4) The kingdom of God "comes not with outward show" Luke 17:20 but is chiefly that which is inward and spiritual Romans 14:17 while the kingdom of heaven is organic, and is to be manifested in glory on the earth. (See "Kingdom (O.T.)," Zechariah 12:8, note; (N.T.), ; Luke 1:31-33; 1 Corinthians 15:24, note; Matthew 17:2, note.) (See Scofield "Zechariah 12:8") , Luke 1:31-33 See Scofield "1 Corinthians 15:24" See Scofield "Matthew 17:2" (5) The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, having put all enemies under his feet, "shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father" 1 Corinthians 15:24-28 (See Scofield "Matthew 3:2")