Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;
"They follow me."
That says it all. I agree that God will save those whom He destined for such. My disagreement is in the idea that people presume that they are the elect. This seems clear that those who follow are kept close. So the onus is on us to follow. I agree that God will hold close those who follow Him. I disagree that this absolves us of any responsibility or choice in the matter.
SD
Jesus went tot he Cross to enable me to have the grace to be truly transformed into a person worthy of seeing God.
I do nothing by myself. Anything good I do is done by God's grace. But I must participate, I must decide to follow God. Not once, but constantly.
SD
A corrupt person is quite capable of teaching true doctrine.
Teaching as in a class setting? Or teaching as in "making disciples"?
"Teaching" as in defining what is true doctrine and what is not.
SD
Think of it as a one-way door. The choice is made when you choose to turn the handle and walk through it. There are plenty of life-changing events that, once done, cannot be undone. For example, you don't believe that a person can be "unbaptized", no matter what he does after that time. Any choices he might make does not rescind the baptism.
This question has still not been answered
Yes it has. It goes with what I said to you in #65293.
We can't know for sure about others. We make judgements about others and respond accordingly. That doesn't mean we are 100% correct about others.
Becky
So it's impossible for Jesus to enable us to become better, enable us to become good enough to enter God's Presence?
SD
I never said this.
Becky
I agree, but this has nothing to do with salvation.
Becky
I don't doubt the door exists and I don't doubt that it acts as you say.
I think a lot of people think they've walked through the door, but they are deceiving themselves.
And the only way to know for sure if you have truly walked through the door is for it to, as you say make, a "life-changing" impact.
Changing your life means that you will do things you didn't used to, and vice versa. This is the tricky thing we call "works" or "fruit." This involves us making decisions, to do what is right or wrong. This should get easier over time, but it remains a decision that we make.
If you cease making the right decisions, shouldn't one doubt that their salvation was real? That they really turned the doorknob and entered?
SD
Dave, your so close:)
Jesus DOES enable us to become better. But your believing you can loose your salavation is believeing that you're doing the keeping. Jesus does the keeping. Our works our not our works, they are Jesus' works thru us BECAUSE we are saved, BECAUSE He is doing the keeping. Yes we do sin, because we still are in the flesh, but HE promises to keep us to the end blameless in the eyes of God. 2 Tim. 1:12
Becky
It's not so much the sanctification, as it is the absolution of sin.
If I am free of sin, I am "saved." When I sin anew, I must repent and receive absolution.
When I sin, I have wronged God and others. To me, the idea that I got "saved" 4 years ago (for example) and that therefore when I sin, I have already repented of it and already been given absolution is nonsense. When I harm God or others, I need to repent. I can't just point back to one point years ago and say "I repented then and got forgiveness."
It is this "cart-before-the-horse" method that makes Protestantism a non-starter for me. I can understand that I am forgiven and will be forgiven when I sin. But there is a human need to address sin periodically and on an ongoing basis that I feel.
If I haven't even done the sin yet, there is no way I can atone for it.
SD
I don’t understand why so many people think it strange that He didn’t just tell the scribes and Pharisees and the chief priest He was God.
Why didn’t God tell Peter straight out, that it was alright to fellowship with Gentiles and eat unclean animals?
Instead, He chose to tell him in a way that he could figure it all out, but at his own pace, and as he was capable of understanding it fully.
God still does that with me today, He gives me new information in bits and pieces, until I’m mature enough to put it all together and understand it.
Excellent post, describing how our understanding grows. When the entire Christian community does this, it is called "development of doctrine."
SD
Then how do you explain the verse Becky cited earlier?
I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 5:13)
If you cease making the right decisions, shouldn't one doubt that their salvation was real?
Based upon the verses cited (the above, and the passage from John 10), I'd have to say no. You may be mucking up your sanctification, but you'd still be "saved". God does not disown his wayward children.
Last night (actually early this morning) I was standing at the back door watching the picket fence bow. Only 2 corner, 4x4s were holding it up. The others had already cracked under pressure. A srong gust would take it almost to the ground and then the fence would slowly rise back up. The wind was roaring. It sounded like cars on a wet, paved road driving by. Sheets of rain that were ice cold and stung were brushing against my face and Bright, almost pure white lightening was flashing in the distance.
This was just a small tropical storm but as I stood there observing, I was reminded of what an awesome God I serve. It was like I was seeing just a glimpse of how wonderful and powerful He is but at the same time I also had a feeling of calmness and security that we were safe within his hands and being protected.
Until a 4x4 whaps you on the head and we see you on Fox's "America's Funniest Stupid Things Done on Tape" LOL
Glad you're alright. I'll take the snow over the tropical storms, thank you.
SD
This is not now nor has it been a Discussion of Calvinism /Arminianism.
What it has been is a discussion of basic CHRISTIAN doctrine that the entire visible church say marks a Christian. To believe other wise puts one out side the visible church.
Making it about something it is not might divert some , but those that are believers understand .
I posted the Creed that defines Christianity .If one can not say Amen to that they are simply outside the professing Christian church.
Well yes, but I don't expect either you or I will be doing so soon. What does 64 bit processing mean to either of us?
A review here: Let's agree to end this foolishness.
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