The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[Invincibly Ignorant]

This entire passage displays your confusion about Trinitarian dogma. No Trinitarian is going to say that "one" witness means there are two or three people there. You take your bias that Trinitarian is polytheistic and then make arguments against that. That may suit your purposes, but it does little to convince a true Trinitarian.

One means one. Three means three. There. That was easy.

You totally miss the idea of a composite one, even though examples are given, like the "one" made of two in marriage.

Didn't miss that at all. However, not true in the case of Adonai Echad.

Reggie doesn't let me make arguments based upon numbers. It's a poor substitute for an argument. If the word is only used once in the Bible, the word still has a meaning, doesnt' it? It still could be considered to be a more proper word for your conception of what "one" must mean.

If I were making my entire argument based on the majority you'd have a point. Sure the Bible has meaning. That's why I believe it when it says ONE God. You're the one that has to torture the meaning of one.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The point is that Steven believes exactly that -- that Trinitarianism is polytheistic.

I know. 3 in one must be a mystery. Great explanation.

[SoothingDave]

I no longer believe in trinity. But if its any consolation I believe the Messiah was born, lived, died and rose from the grave. The promised redeemer of Israel.

Just to be clear to Mr. Right, this means that he no longer believes Jesus to be God.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

If God was not interested in progressive revelation of himself, He sure would have. But He didn't. Can you not see the Bible revealing more and more about God as history progresses?

Sure. But not that he's 3. Pure Polytheism.

Why limit this to Acts? We know, and have discussed, that Thomas does indeed fall to his knees and cries out "my Lord and my God" when he sees the Risen Jesus. Or is that a corrupted text?

Thomas' exclamation proves nothing. I say my Lord and my God all the time.

[SoothingDave]

Can you not see the Bible revealing more and more about God as history progresses?

Sure.

Good. then you understand that not all is revealed immediately.

But not that he's 3. Pure Polytheism.

Not at all. God reveals to us more of the internal workings of His Being. He lets us know that He is not just the Father and Creator.

Thomas' exclamation proves nothing. I say my Lord and my God all the time.

Really? You don't think that's a violation of the Commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain?

Besides, the context is clear that Thomas is addressing Jesus, not just saying "Gee willikers!"

SD

[Havoc]

Back at you again. Wanna play tennis? LOL

[Sass]

I think the case can be made here that "fullfil" here doesn't have to mean the fullfillment of a prophetic event. In the sense of the word it strongly suggests that Christ's live makes complete and fleshes out the passage. Israel was in Egypt, Christ was in Egypt and everyone in sin is in spiritual Egypt.

Now you have your own 20th/21st century pesher that may not necessarily correspond with a 1st century hermeneutic. I've always wondered how Christianity fares in Egypt when Christianity associates the nation with sin!?!?! Does Scripture associate eternally Egypt with sin or have you chosen to do this following centuries of Christian tradition?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Really? You don't think that's a violation of the Commandment not to take the Lord's name in vain?

Who says I or Thomas are taking the Lord's name in vain?

Besides, the context is clear that Thomas is addressing Jesus, not just saying "Gee willikers!"

He's praising God Almighty for sending the son.

[SoothingDave]

The term pesher means, "to explain." In fact, however, pesher is an application of OT scripture with little to no concern for the context of the passage applied. Pesher may refer either to commentaries on the OT found amongst the Dead Sea scrolls[3] or to the interpretive technique typical of these commentaries.[4] Pesher interpreters assume that OT authors were speaking to the contemporary audience. This form of interpretation is tied to a word, text or OT allusion, which is then related to a present person, place or thing. The interpretations are generally aloof from the source context and appear to lack any coherent methodology. According to Lundberg, "This kind of commentary (pesher) is not an attempt to explain what the Bible meant when it was originally written, but rather what it means in the day and age of the commentator, particularly for his own community."[5]

For anyone else who had no clue what that meant.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

You can read about another possibility here http://www.sabbatarian.com/KuriosTheos.html

[SoothingDave]

I've always wondered how Christianity fares in Egypt when Christianity associates the nation with sin!?!?! Does Scripture associate eternally Egypt with sin or have you chosen to do this following centuries of Christian tradition?

I'm sure Christianity does just fine amongst Egyptians who can understand metaphor.

The parallel being drawn is between the Israelite escape from Egypt into freedom and the Christian escape from sin into freedom. It's not an indictment of present day Egyptian people or the nation.

SD

[malakhi]

You can certainly stick with the old mortgage if you want to, but who would want to?

I get unsolicited e-mail all the time offering me special low rates on mortgage refinancing.

[malakhi]

Wisconsin has a deserved reputation for weirdness. Another example:

STEVENS POINT, WI (AP) -- A Stevens Point man is accused of drugging his wife with a prescription painkiller, telling investigators she was nagging him for failing to do some chores.

A criminal complaint filed in Portage County says Gary Guinn put Vicodin in some ice cream he bought for his wife. When she bit into something bitter, she spit it out and reported it to the ice cream stand and police. A sample was sent to the state crime lab in Madison, which determined the presence of Vicodin.

When detectives questioned Guinn, he allegedly told them his wife had been nagging him after she returned from a trip because he failed to do some work he had promised to do.

The complaint says Guinn had the Vicodin because of recent surgery. A court date is scheduled July 14.

[malakhi]

Besides, the context is clear that Thomas is addressing Jesus, not just saying "Gee willikers!"

Reggie pointed something out about this passage last week.

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"
Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe."
Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;
but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in his name. (John 20:28-31)

Despite your claim for the meaning of verse 28, the author of John does not explicitly state "that you may believe that Jesus is God". He could have, but he didn't. Instead, he asserted that Jesus is the messiah, the Son of God.

[malakhi]

The term pesher means, "to explain." In fact, however, pesher is an application of OT scripture with little to no concern for the context of the passage applied. Pesher may refer either to commentaries on the OT found amongst the Dead Sea scrolls[3] or to the interpretive technique typical of these commentaries.[4] Pesher interpreters assume that OT authors were speaking to the contemporary audience. This form of interpretation is tied to a word, text or OT allusion, which is then related to a present person, place or thing. The interpretations are generally aloof from the source context and appear to lack any coherent methodology. According to Lundberg, "This kind of commentary (pesher) is not an attempt to explain what the Bible meant when it was originally written, but rather what it means in the day and age of the commentator, particularly for his own community."[5]

Interesting that this is precisely the method of scriptural interpretation embraced by the writers of the gospels. It is no wonder that Jews and Christians understand the Hebrew scriptures so differently.

[trad_anglican]

Wisconsin has a deserved reputation for weirdness.

I hope to move back there some day. I think I'll fit in quite well.

[malakhi]

I hope to move back there some day. I think I'll fit in quite well.

Heheh... Members of the cheesehead diaspora are always welcome to return. :o)

[malakhi]

Sign #851 that the end is near:

The upcoming Split of the Church of England

Gay bishop stands defiant By Rob McNeil, Evening Standard 19 June 2003 The new Bishop of Reading today insisted he would remain in a gay relationship and had no intention of standing down.

[IMRight]

Wow. How'd ya miss all this? Must be busy at the bank. It's true. I no longer believe in trinity. But if its any consolation I believe the Messiah was born, lived, died and rose from the grave. The promised redeemer of Israel.

Wow is right! And "ouch" as well. Was this coincident with the messianic jew "thing" or subsequent to it? I was under the impression that they (at least the evangelic branch) believed in the Trinity.

How did Mack/Becky/etc. take the change?

I think I may use you as an example the next time they bring up OSAS (so be on notice that I am not attempting to claim whether you are or are not a Christian anymore... merely whether you qualify under the NC definition used by the OSAS crowd).

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Wow is right! And "ouch" as well. Was this coincident with the messianic jew "thing" or subsequent to it? I was under the impression that they (at least the evangelic branch) believed in the Trinity.

Most of them do.

How did Mack/Becky/etc. take the change?

They were fine. Said they had to leave for some reason tho. They're supposed to avoid hairticks and then when I miss them too much I'm supposed to come back and tell them how wrong I was. :-)

I think I may use you as an example the next time they bring up OSAS (so be on notice that I am not attempting to claim whether you are or are not a Christian anymore... merely whether you qualify under the NC definition used by the OSAS crowd).

At first they thought I was still saved, then they said no, then I must not have been saved in the first place and now they're undecided again. Such is the life of OSAS. :-)