The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[snerkel]

What is "OSAS"?

[drstevej]

OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved

[ventana]

Otherwise known as Eternal security. Following a onetime moment of Salvation, being Born Again, you cannot lose that security. No matter what.

A source of serious disagreement, and not a little confusion here over the past week.

[drstevej]

Where does the Bible say we turn our wills over to God in the sense you are suggesting?

[DouglasKC]

Where does the Bible say we turn our wills over to God in the sense you are suggesting?

The best example of scripture is:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Nobody enters into the kingdom unless they do God's will.

Paul also gives an exmample:

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I think this is just another way of saying that the will of Christ is predominant in Christians.

This is also a good examle:

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, [art] in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

You don't necessarily need a horse trailer first. If you buy a horse locally they will usually haul it to your place.

Horse prices vary in an incredible range around here, $500-10,000. It depends on so many things, including how bad the seller needs money. I have a friend who just sold a horse for 1,500 who was asking 4,500 last year for the same horse:) The best thing is to decide what the limit is YOU want to spend, and go from there. Don't get into a hurry.

Health: watch for snotty noses, limping, broken up hoofs, a little rough is ok, but make sure they have no cracks that go up into the very top of the hoof by the hair line. A crack that high will NEVER close, and causes problems that can be dealt with, but why buy a problem. Look at their legs, make sure none of the joints are bigger then the others, run you hand down the back side of their legs and feel for bumps, that can mean a bowed tendon, they don't heal ever completly either and can cause lameness on and off. Look at the horses coat condition. They should be all shed out now and slick and shiney.. If they still have long ruff hair, they are probably wormy which can be fixed, but if the people have let them go for a long time then they could have intenstine damage that can lead to having a horse that colics easy. Remember to ask the people if they will pay for a vet check. Vets all the time check horses for buyers. But the above stuff is a place for you to start.


Good Luck, I am really excited for you, and to have another horse lover on here to talk too during football, basketball and hockey season:)

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Thanks Doug, I've got another to add..

Yesterday when I went out to feed, one of my Blue Heelers got kicked in the head by my mare. She was DRT (dead right there). I couldn't believe it. This dog has been kicked in the head so many times, knocked out cold and always has survived, Last week I was getting in my trailer to get out the saddle and the trailer fell of the jack and she was under neath. She was screaming and we had to get the floor jack out to get it up. I was sure her back was broke, but once we got the trailer up a bit she came out just fine. I had decided then the dog was immortal, then yesterday she got a kick from a horse with no shoes and croaks. Go figure. At least she died quick and doing what she loved most, tormenting my horses.

The whole family had a love/hate feeling for the dog. She was probably 10 yrs. old. But we figured she had some brain damage from all the kicks she has had which is why she was such a nerotic dog. She was so sweet to people, but she was a definite loony tune. I am sad she is gone, at times she was fun to watch, but last night when I went out to feed, it was so easy and quiet getting the horses up, there was no blue streak dashing about nipping heels barking hysterically. Now we just need to see how bad the other heeler we have who was best friends with her, and my Jack Russell handles her being gone. Josey (the dead one) was the only one who played with Susie, the other heeler is older, 13, I think they will both miss her, just don't know how much..

Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

OH, yeah, I forgot to tell you all about the homeschool group that came out here.

We had a really good time, the kids were all real well behaved. There were 10 kids and 3 moms and 1 grandmother:)

Of course luck would have it that my mare is coming in to season, and Rocky our stud who I was using had to show off what he had:) The moms where the ones that got a kick out of that, they were giggling like crazy, that embarassed me more then Rocky.

He stood real good during the saddleing, then I rode him out in the arena so they could see his different gaits, then each kid got to be lead around on him. Well he did pretty good for a while, but after a while when ever we passed the mare he started talking to her. I could not correct him for it because of the kid on him, he would have jumped around. So by the time the 10th kid rode he had gotten pretty full of himself and was slinging his head around, and really pulling when I would make him trot.

I thought we were done, but then the mother's decided they wanted a turn. The first mother said she had rode before and could go by her self. (I don't think they had noticed that Rock was being a bit of a pill, it was all normal to them) So I told her not to go down too close to where the mare was, she went off at a walk, seemed to be OK, I turned to talk to the others and the next thing I know Rocky has broke into a lope and the lady was hanging on to the horn. I started telling her as calmly as I could to pick up the reins and pull back, say whoa, but she just sat there with the horse going faster and faster. He finally ran by me and I grabbed the reins.

I figured that would end it but tahe others still wanted a turn. Then when they got done, the grandmother wanted a turn, by this time Rocky is really bad:), they had to boost the ole gal up because she has one hand that has something wrong and she can't use it. I lead her around, but Rocky was really slinging his head, and trying to drag me. When she finally got off, I had to get one him and ride him down by the mare and school him till he decided to stand there quietly. He is really not a bad horse, but horses are like kids, give them and inch they will take a mile, and he did:).

Then when we were unsaddling the big moment finally came. He pooped. The kids were amazed at the size and color, (green) and the moms were all holding their noses and gasping. LOL. Just cracks me up. The really fun part of this is to nonchantly walk over and kick the pile out of the way. That really gets em:). Of course that happened when Mack had just come out to take everyones picture in front of the horse. What a day!!:)

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

(Quester) What does this mean to you, ventana?

OK, if you insist.

Both are saved, they know their own father, after all. One believes he does not "have to" but works because he "wants to" the second knows he has to, but then forgets, and does not.

It's an odd one to be sure, but Jesus is saying it's the one who acknowledges the instruction not the one who is actually fruitful, who is obedient to the word.

In other words, the ones who are not works based are the ones working for reward, while the ones who are, ostensibly, works based, are rewarded for loyalty, not work.

Ironic, no?

I don't see it this way.

The first son (publicans and harlots) resisted, repented, and was saved.

The second son (Pharisees)talked the talk but didn't walk the walk.

Ie. You are not saved by your empty talk.

So says OR.

[ventana]

Sorry to hear that Becky. Losing a dog is always sad.

[OLD REGGIE]

Then when we were unsaddling the big moment finally came. He pooped. The kids were amazed at the size and color, (green) and the moms were all holding their noses and gasping. LOL. Just cracks me up. The really fun part of this is to nonchantly walk over and kick the pile out of the way. That really gets em:). Of course that happened when Mack had just come out to take everyones picture in front of the horse. What a day!!:)

Too bad you didn't video tape the whole thing. It would make an outstanding "reality" show.

Your "innocent" mothers, grandma too, don't fool me one bit. It was an erotic exercise for them to be riding a big, handsome, horney male.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

It was an erotic exercise for them to be riding a big, handsome, horney male.

Emphasis on "big", I think is what they were all giggling about:), so you may be right. Becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Thanks. Yeah, it is sad, but I really think this dog is at peace now. We have been wondering the last year, how much farther her eyes could have bugged out without popping out. She had some really obsessive compulsions that kept her wound up real tight ALL the time. Even in her sleep she twitched constantly. I've learned that blue heelers are like that, but she had a double dose of instinct to herd.

Becky

[ventana]

Mat 21:28 But what think ye? A [certain] man had two sons; and he came to the first, and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.

Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.

Mat 21:30 And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said, I [go], sir: and went not.

Mat 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of [his] father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

I don't see it this way.

The first son (publicans and harlots) resisted, repented, and was saved.

The second son (Pharisees)talked the talk but didn't walk the walk.

Ie. You are not saved by your empty talk.

It might be worth reading it again, Jesus prefers the second son. The priests and elders thought the first son was better too, but that was the wrong choice. Jesus rebuked them and told them that if they thought that way, even cheats and hookers would get into heaven before they would.

The point is we say yes to God (agree to follow his word) "I go sir", which he loves, even if we fail. He does not prefer those who say no, even if they work.

If the Spirit is willing, that is the thing, even if the flesh is weak.

v.

[ventana]

We have been wondering the last year, how much farther her eyes could have bugged out without popping out.

LOL

We have a 12 year old German Shepard that finally grew up about 3 years ago, we love her to bits. They don't live very long, so it'll be sad. I grew up with a Shetland Pony stallion (really just a big dog with hard feet). He was a hoot, particularly around full sized mares.

v.

[AlguyA]

"I follow Mr. Wesley's view that the free will is made possible by prevenient ("going before") grace sufficient to give each person a truly free and balanced choice, such that the result is not the "work" of the believer but the work of God effectuated by the exercise of the will of the believer."

Is this "prevenient grace" given to all? If so, then isn't it in fact that when the "work of God" is "effectuated by the exercise of the will of the believer" it is, in essence then, a "work" of the believer in that some choose to exercise God's enabling grace while others don't?

Also, thanks dr. steve for your response to my initial post on this subject. It does seem to me that if one accepts OSAS, one essentially must argue 'irresistable grace,' at least after the point of conversion, making them, as you say, "functional Calvinists" disagreeing only with when grace becomes irresistable. Further, it would seem if one argues that until conversion grace is resistable, then one cannot escape the notion that, in the main, our salvation rests on just how we choose to exercise our will, thus making our own salvation at least somewhat dependent on our "work."

Is this logical?

[drstevej]

***Is this logical?***

Yes, I believe it is.

[OLD REGGIE]

It might be worth reading it again, Jesus prefers the second son. The priests and elders thought the first son was better too, but that was the wrong choice. Jesus rebuked them and told them that if they thought that way, even cheats and hookers would get into heaven before they would.

The point is we say yes to God (agree to follow his word) "I go sir", which he loves, even if we fail. He does not prefer those who say no, even if they work.

If the Spirit is willing, that is the thing, even if the flesh is weak.

And that is why I would never participate in a Bible Study class taught by you.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It isn't the words. It isn't the false outward appearances. It is whoever "doeth the will of my Father".

The "harlot and publican" resisted, repented, and did the will of the Father.

The Pharisees were quick to say "sure - whatever you say" and did not do the will of the Father.

Now are you arguing that empty words alone are sufficient for salvation?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

We had a friend who bought a miniture stallion for their daughter when she was tiny, They had him gelded, but he was a stud long enough that even after he was gelded he would act studdy, Your right it is a hoot to see those little guys around full size mares. Even around other geldings he would bow up and squeal with his ears pinned, he was tuff:)

Becky

[ventana]

You are not alone. I promise I'll never invite you to one. I just can't help believing this, I've thought about it for a long time.

The two sons are both "sons of the father." I see that as meaning they are both saved.

The first son says "No," The second son says "Yes."

The first son goes. The second son does not (no mention of why).

The first son works, the second son does not.

It is the second son who does the will of the Father, because it is the will of the Father that you be obedient, not that you succeed.

We are all weak, and we all will fall short of Jesus' command: "be perfect." God loves us that we will say "yes" If you say "Yes" to Jesus when he says to "be perfect" do you think Jesus really expects you to fulfill that promise? Or is it enough that you said yes.

If a soldier obeys an order, but falls under fire and fails to accomplish his mission, and another soldier is insubbordinate, refuses a direct order but later goes anyway, which one gets the purple heart, and which one gets disciplined?

v.