The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

Well, kingship and priesthood are Jesus' because of who He is, not His boiology. So it's irrelevant.

Its relevant because to fulfil the messianic prophecies, he had to be of the "seed of David" (and the author of the gospel of John agrees!).

[malakhi]

Quick consult the pro-evangel? :-)

I took a look at it, but it doesn't provide any further information. I did turn up some Orthodox sources which reported a tradition that Mary's father Joachim was a Levite, but I have been unable to find an original source for the claim.

[SoothingDave]

Someone "adopted" into a different tribe (there was no legal adoption in biblical times) remained a member of the tribe in which they were born.

Fine. Then explain to me what tribe a Jew belongs to that has no human father.

What tribe was Jesus born into?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Its relevant because to fulfil the messianic prophecies, he had to be of the "seed of David" (and the author of the gospel of John agrees!).

And you interpret "seed of David" how?

To me, it means a biological descendent from David's tribe. Through Mary, Jesus meets this requirement.

SD

[malakhi]

If the situation were reversed (kingship passed matrilinearly, jewishness patrilinearly) would you be here arguing that Jesus wasn't a Jew?

If wishes were fishes we'd all cast nets.

[malakhi]

Fine. Then explain to me what tribe a Jew belongs to that has no human father. What tribe was Jesus born into?

Uh, Dave, I don't believe that Jesus was a virgin birth, remember? If you want my opinion, his father was Joseph, of the tribe of Judah.

[SoothingDave]

Castanets? Cinco de Mayo?

SD

[malakhi]

To me, it means a biological descendent from David's tribe. Through Mary, Jesus meets this requirement.

Again, kingship was not matrilineal.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

The Gospel of the Birth of Mary (mother of Jesus) according to Mathew by the St. Jerome (340-420) version records Mary's parents as Joachim of Nazareth, Galilee and Anna of Bethlehem.

Jerome says Anna comes from Bethlehem. "IF" that's the truth its likely the mother was of the tribe of Judah.

[SoothingDave]

Then explain to me what tribe a Jew belongs to that has no human father.

Uh, Dave, I don't believe that Jesus was a virgin birth, remember? If you want my opinion, his father was Joseph, of the tribe of Judah.

I asked in the generic first.

Are you aware of the law that most (if not all) states have that children born into a marriage are considered, by law, to be the offspring of the husband?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Again, kingship was not matrilineal.

If the mother was of the line of David, that's good enough for me. After all its what's in the veins, not what's on paper.

[OLD REGGIE]

Some critics may not accept this explanation no matter what reasoning is produced. Nevertheless, they should first realize that the Bible should be interpreted in the context of its literary style, culture, and history.... Second, do any critics actually think that those who collected the books of the New Testament,(i.e. St. Jerome) and who believed it was inerrant, were unaware of this blatant contradiction between the Church's belief in Mary's perpetual virginity and the scripture, 'brother of the Lord? Does anyone actually think that the Christians(St. Jerome) were so dense that they were unaware of the differences between a literal interpretation of Scripture and Tradition, closed their eyes and put the epistles into the canon anyway hoping no one would notice?

The same Jerome who claimed that Joseph was a perpetual virgin hoping no one would notice this does away with the step-brother theory?

[OLD REGGIE]

The only difference is that I have been told that. That we were "dumb enough" to leave stuff in that contradicts our dogma, cause we figured no one was ever, ever, going to read Scripture.

No, but you are dumb enough to keep stating that NC's, though some do, believe that you can't call your own daddy "father". You know better.

[malakhi]

Are you aware of the law that most (if not all) states have that children born into a marriage are considered, by law, to be the offspring of the husband?

Modern jurisprudence has no bearing on customs of first century Judea.

BUT, just for fun, let's assume that the kingship can be passed matrilineally, and let's further assume that the genealogy in Luke is Mary's and not Joseph's. There is still a problem!

When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come forth from your body, and I will establish his kingdom.
He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. (2 Samuel 7:12-13)

God made this promise to David. Clearly this refers to Solomon.

Then the LORD appeared to Solomon in the night and said to him: "I have heard your prayer, and have chosen this place for myself as a house of sacrifice...
For now I have chosen and consecrated this house that my name may be there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time.
And as for you, if you walk before me, as David your father walked, doing according to all that I have commanded you and keeping my statutes and my ordinances,
then I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, `There shall not fail you a man to rule Israel.' (2 Chronicles 7:12,16-18)

Which confirms 2 Samuel.

So the line of David -- and the line of the future messiah -- must pass through Solomon.

Now, let's take a look at the pertinent passage of Luke:

the son of Me'le-a, the son of Menna, the son of Mat'tatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David (Luke 3:31)

This genealogy goes through Nathan, not Solomon.

[trad_anglican]

Yes, when the centurions "cast lots" it was gambling. When the Apostles "cast lots" it was a method of balloting.

From The Thomas Nelson Open Bible Study Notes:

The casting of lots was a custom or rite used in ancient times to make important decisions, much as we practice drawing straws or flipping a coin today. Several examples of this practice occur in both the Old and New Testaments.

Lots were cast by the high priest to select the scapegoat on the Day of Atonement. (Lev 16:8-10). This method was also used to divide the land of Canaan after its conquest under Joshua (Num. 26:55,56; Josh. 14:2). Lots were cast to select warriors to fight against the men of Gibeah (Judg. 20:9,10) and apparently to choose Saul as the first king of Israel (1 Sam. 10:19-21). Sailors on the ship bound for Tarshish with Jonah on board used lots to determine who had caused the stormy seas (Jon 1:7).

In the New Testament, Roman soldiers cast lots for Jesus' garments (Matt. 27:35). After prayer, the apostles used lots to choose Matthias as successor to Judas (Acts 1: 24-26).

We can only speculate about what materials were used in the casting of lots. Some scholars believe several stones, or perhaps precious gems, were cast from a clay jug. Others connect the practice with Urim and Thummin, precious stones that were on, by or in the breastplate of the high priest of Israel. The high priest used these stones in making important decision, but it is not known exactly how this was done (Ex. 28:30).

"The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof is of the LORD."

Proverbs 16:33 demonstrates above that casting lots was not considered magic, because the decision was from the Lord.

I'm not sure how good the source is on this. I'll look for more.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

God’s Simple Plan of Salvation

My Friend: I am asking you the most important question of life. Your joy or your sorrow for all eternity depends upon your answer. The question is: Are you saved? It is not a question of how good you are, nor if you are a church member, but are you saved? Are you sure you will go to Heaven when you die?

God says in order to go to Heaven, you must be born again. In John 3:7, Jesus said to Nicodemus, “Ye must be born again.”

In the Bible God gives us the plan of how to be born again which means to be saved. His plan is simple! You can be saved today. How?

First, my friend, you must realize you are a sinner. “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23).

Because you are a sinner, you are condemned to death. “For the wages [payment] of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). This includes eternal separation from God in Hell.

“ . . . it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment” (Hebrews 9:27).

But God loved you so much He gave His only begotten Son, Jesus, to bear your sin and die in your place. “ . . . He hath made Him [Jesus, Who knew no sin] to be sin for us . . . that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

Jesus had to shed His blood and die. “For the life of the flesh is in the blood” (Lev. 17:11). “ . . . without shedding of blood is no remission [pardon]” (Hebrews 9:22).

“ . . . God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

Although we cannot understand how, God said my sins and your sins were laid upon Jesus and He died in our place. He became our substitute. It is true. God cannot lie.

My friend, “God . . . commandeth all men everywhere to repent” (Acts 17:30). This repentance is a change of mind that agrees with God that one is a sinner, and also agrees with what Jesus did for us on the Cross.

In Acts 16:30-31, the Philippian jailer asked Paul and Silas: “ . . . ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ And they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved . . . .’ ”

Simply believe on Him as the one who bore your sin, died in your place, was buried, and whom God resurrected. His resurrection powerfully assures that the believer can claim everlasting life when Jesus is received as Savior.

“But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name” (John 1:12).

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).

Whosoever includes you. Shall be saved means not maybe, nor can, but shall be saved.

Surely, you realize you are a sinner. Right now, wherever you are, repenting, lift your heart to God in prayer.

In Luke 18:13, the sinner prayed: “God be merciful to me a sinner.” Just pray: “Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I believe His shed blood, death, burial, and resurrection were for me. I now receive Him as my Savior. I thank You for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of salvation and everlasting life, because of Your merciful grace. Amen.”

Just take God at His word and claim His salvation by faith. Believe, and you will be saved. No church, no lodge, no good works can save you. Remember, God does the saving. All of it!

God’s simple plan of salvation is: You are a sinner. Therefore, unless you believe on Jesus Who died in your place, you will spend eternity in Hell. If you believe on Him as your crucified, buried, and risen Savior, you receive forgiveness for all of your sins and His gift of eternal salvation by faith.

You say, “Surely, it cannot be that simple.” Yes, that simple! It is scriptural. It is God’s plan. My friend, believe on Jesus and receive Him as Savior today.

If His plan is not perfectly clear, read this tract over and over, without laying it down, until you understand it. Your soul is worth more than all the world.

“For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world and lose his own soul?” (Mark 8:36).

Be sure you are saved. If you lose your soul, you miss Heaven and lose all. Please! Let God save you this very moment.

God’s power will save you, keep you saved, and enable you to live a victorious Christian life. “There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it” (1 Corinthians 10:13).

Do not trust your feelings. They change. Stand on God’s promises. They never change. After you are saved, there are three things to practice daily for spiritual growth:


Pray -- you talk to God.
Read your Bible -- God talks to you.
Witness -- you talk for God.
You should be baptized in obedience to the Lord Jesus Christ as a public testimony of your salvation, and then unite with a Bible-believing church without delay. “Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord . . . .” (2 Timothy 1:8)

“Whosoever therefore shall confess [testify of] Me before men, him will I confess also before My Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 10:32).


BigMack

[trad_anglican]

I'm not sure how good the source is on this. I'll look for more.

The transliteration of the Greek is "Lagcano" and means to obtain by lot or by divine allotment. The word appears elsewhere in the NT in 2 Peter 1:1

"Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

and John 19:24

They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.

There is no mention anywhere that I've found of the word ever indicating any kind of voting or balloting.

[trad_anglican]

Oops. It also appears in Luke 1:9

According to the custom of the priest's office, his lot was to burn incense when he went into the temple of the Lord.

[SoothingDave]

God made this promise to David. Clearly this refers to Solomon.

If this clearly refers to Solomon, then does that mean it has no other meaning?

So the line of David -- and the line of the future messiah -- must pass through Solomon.

Huh? God fulfilled his promise to David, in the person of Solomon. That this takes on a second, Messianic meaning does not mean that the fulfillment of it must follow the same path, does it?

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

And as for you, if you walk before me, as David your father walked, doing according to all that I have commanded you and keeping my statutes and my ordinances, then I will establish your royal throne, as I covenanted with David your father, saying, `There shall not fail you a man to rule Israel.' (2 Chronicles 7:12,16-18)

He did not walk before God as David his father. If you'll remember he had 700 wives resulting in the Kingdom being split in two. The northern kingdom and the souther kingdom.