Posted on 03/30/2002 7:53:37 PM PST by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I've always understood that venerating was acceptable. :-)
LOL. I did (unknowinly) the same thing this year with a project. I wanted some of our patio dug out, fence put up around what I left, a stepping stone sidewalk laid to go out of the fence, the fence painted, and a garden planted where the patio had been:). I figured it was a 1-2 day project:), nothing major.
Becky
2) We (Lutherans, by the way) believe that the bread and wine are bread and wine, but that at the communion table those hosts are also the body and blood of Christ. The hosts don't lose their physical form, instead, they become invested with the actual presence of Christ.
How does this happen? When?
It probably makes more sense to say "we believe what the bible means". It seems to be over simplistic to say we believe it is literal because there are parts that are figurative and parts that are typology. God does so much data compressing it is hard to explain how much is really in there.
Don't you think that's awfully weak, the notion that He is somehow mystically invested in the bread and wine by the speaking of the words? I sure don't see that in the bible.
In my previous life (;-), I donned the robe and poured the wine in the ELCA church. I might have given the Mo. Synod a try, if not for their having many of the same unbiblical beliefs.
Are you saying Jesus wasn't human? Carful now, this is a trap that you just set for yourself. Ain't faulty logic fun.
2) We (Lutherans, by the way) believe that the bread and wine are bread and wine, but that at the communion table those hosts are also the body and blood of Christ. The hosts don't lose their physical form, instead, they become invested with the actual presence of Christ.
IE you summon Christ down from heaven with your mighty powers invested in you to both defy scripture and blaspheme Christ by rendering him a liar through your accusatory action. Yes your actions do have ramifications. Christ said he sat down at the side of the Father and will not return till the end. You suggest you force him to return every time you do your encantations to turn bread and wine to blood and flesh. Now, either He's a liar because of your witness (blasphemy) or your philosophy is a lie. It can't be both ways.
I Corinthians 10:16 reads:
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not he communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
It should be no object of amazement that they think one can only say Jesus is Lord if they are Spirit filled. They don't realize the true meaning being stated there. A devil worshipper could walk up unbeknownst to them and if he can say 'Jesus is Lord' they'd buy him as a long lost Christian Lamb. They view it all 2 dimensionally - I have Gas therefore I can fuel and drive a car. Well, Duh. That isn't the point. The point is that without the existance of Gas, you couldn't build the car - much less do anything else with it. It's no wonder their priests get their butts kicked in spiritual warfare..
Those who choose to observe the Lord's Supper in the manner prescribed by the Apostle Paul, may offend you personally, but they, none-the-less, base their practice upon Scripture.
Tell him about the holy rail.
It is quite a spiritual thing to change the way a possible Christian views the bible. To change his perception fo the bible from the Living and Active Word of God to one of 3 possible inputs in a very convoluted religious puzzle is a major victory for the Adversary.
Now here's the rub that should be a dead giveaway after all this time. The deep spiritual issues are resolved in a christian through the spirit. They are pursued and gotten wrong in wannabes because they apply logic and reason and try to figure it out on their own. Thus, Catholicism doesn't understand the nature of sin or of much anything else. It's tripped up by multiple baptisms because it doesn't understand the difference. etc.
It is interesting how little time it actually takes to disciple a new Christian in the right direction when their hearts have been prepared to learn. A Lutheran friend of mine pointed out that through the Holy Spirit a Christian isn't magically endowed with knowledge, but he does have a supernatural discernment that will keep him from lies. It's an interesting thought. I've always wondered what would have been the outcome in my discipleship if I had hooked up with a JW or LDS or RC when I first got saved.
I doubt it. But, I left the ELCA many years ago, just a few months after my second birth, ill-equipped at the time to be the Lone Ranger.
Corinthians 10:16 reads:
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not he communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
Of course. Don't you think that's awfully weak, the notion that He is somehow mystically invested in the bread and wine by the speaking of the words? I sure don't see that in the bible.
I Corinthians 10:16 reads:It wouldn't be much of a remembrance if the verse said ...
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not he communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not he communion of the fruit of the vine ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of bread ?... would it ?
There is one bread.
we who are many, who partake of this one bread, are one body.
We are the actual flesh and blood of Jesus? (Purposely rediculous.)
Consider:
1 Corinthians 11:
24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is my body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
25 In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me."
26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes.
Bread and cup. Still bread and cup.
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