The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[malakhi]

Man, have I missed out on the fun! AlguyA, Havoc, biblewonk ...

Thanks a heck of a lot. I missed you too.

Hi, welcome to The Neverending Story! What is your background, and what sports teams do you root for?

;o)

[OLD REGGIE]

I would much rather talk with someone who is searching in the Bible than some puffed up, know it all Bible scholar that trys to talk down to me.

Is it ok to use a search engine? ;-) I can't use the Bible, my notebook, my keyboard, and my mouse at the same time.

[malakhi]

In light of these passages, I think I see how the Catholic church could theoretically allow women priests someday. Something like this: "Since a woman, Mary, presented the sacrifice of Jesus to the Father, then a woman, acting in persona Mary, can offer the unbloody sacrifice of Jesus in the eucharist".

Not saying this will happen, but if it did happen, this is how it could be justified. The foundation is already laid out in the encyclicals I cited last night.

[newgeezer]

> All have sinned.

You say this,

God said it.

yet you can not identify what the sin of the newborn is?

Point me to anything in Scripture which suggests there is an age of accountability. Absent that, the bible speaks clearly regarding any who would presume to rationalize in God's place.

Why do you not examine your beliefs in the light of this failure?

Examine my beliefs? As I said before, I don't know. If others have it all figured out -- or are happy to accept someone else's extra-biblical rationalizations -- good for them. One fact is eminently clear; however God judges is the very definition of perfect justice and perfect love. That's more than enough for me.

[IMRight]

I can't use the Bible, my notebook, my keyboard, and my mouse at the same time.

The man has a Bible, a notebook, a keyboard and a mouse... and the first one he discards is the Bible???

[malakhi]

The standard is always the same: believe what God says. During the OT times, well from Ex 20 onward, it was the Levitical sacrifices. God said do them to be forgiven.

But first, this was only for Israel. We know that gentiles could also repent and be forgiven (the Ninevites, for example).

Second, we can see from the Hebrew scriptures that God can forgive sin even without the Levitical sacrifices. Does God desire sacrifice?

Third, even assuming the divine inspiration of the gospel, does this invalidate God's promises from the Hebrew scriptures?

[conservonator]

I had Fr. Most, or Ducky as he was know as, for several classical studies classes while in college. A most interesting, brilliant and amusing man. He liked onion sandwiches. He often ate alone.

[OLD REGGIE]

"...When the supreme hour of the Son came, beside the Cross of Jesus there stood Mary His Mother, not merely occupied in contemplating the cruel spectacle, but rejoicing that her Only Son was offered for the salvation of mankind..."

Consider the irony.

While Mary was "rejoicing"...........

Mark 15:

[34] And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, "E'lo-i, E'lo-i, la'ma sabach-tha'ni?" which means, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

[conservonator]

Here is a list of most of his works Fr. Most

Enjoy!

[malakhi]

I will lift up the cup of salvation
and call on the name of (Psalm 116:13)

And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of shall be delivered (Joel 2:32)

[malakhi]

He liked onion sandwiches. He often ate alone.

I guess so! ;o)

[ksen]

But first, this was only for Israel. We know that gentiles could also repent and be forgiven (the Ninevites, for example).

Gentiles were also allowed in, hence the instructions on treating the strangers that sojourned among them. The Ninevites also believed God's word as preached to them by Jonah.

It all comes down to believing what God has said.

Second, we can see from the Hebrew scriptures that God can forgive sin even without the Levitical sacrifices. Does God desire sacrifice?

God desires people to trust Him.

Third, even assuming the divine inspiration of the gospel, does this invalidate God's promises from the Hebrew scriptures?

Invalidate? No, it just changes the basis of belief. In the Hebrew Scriptures God said He would send a Prophet like unto Moses and it was Him to who Israel should listen.

The Christian Scriptures don't say the Israelites were wrong for following the Levitical system. They say the purpose of that system was to bring to our mind the enormity of our sin. Then when we acknowledge our sinfulness we see our need to be reconciled to God and that reconciliation comes through accepting the once for all sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth, the Jewish Messiah.

[ksen]

Sit down malakhi, YHWH is Jesus. Or, if you prefer, Jesus is YHWH.

If you read the KJV of the Hebrew Scriptures you will notice that sometimes God is referred to as LORD God or Lord GOD.

The LORD God is the second person of the Trinity while the Lord GOD is the first.

[IMRight]

He liked onion sandwiches. He often ate alone.

I love onion sandwiches. You just have to top them correctly.

.

Like with steak and cheese.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

It is the "Word made flesh" -- literally made flesh in the person of Jesus -- of a man literally being God -- that is the obstacle for me.

And why would that be? Think outside of the box you have placed yourself in on this.

Then, if I understand correctly, people who lived and died before Jesus could be saved "on credit" without knowing or believing in Jesus, but that those who lived after Jesus can only be saved if they believe in him? If God is not a respecter of persons, then why would He hold some to a different standard for salvation?

Same standard, folks were looking forward to a savior, believed got saved, the savior came, people believe in Him, get saved.

What about the other passages I quoted, which do seem to be more clearly about individual salvation?

Same as the above, they believed God on the coming savior.

BigMack

[malakhi]

Sit down malakhi, YHWH is Jesus. Or, if you prefer, Jesus is YHWH.

OK, then since I trust in YHWH, I have nothing to fear.

And it shall come to pass that all who call upon the name of YHWH shall be delivered (Joel 2:32)

If you read the KJV of the Hebrew Scriptures you will notice that sometimes God is referred to as LORD God or Lord GOD. The LORD God is the second person of the Trinity while the Lord GOD is the first.

You are reading this meaning into the text. I don't see any special significance to this. There are more than three names of God in the Hebrew scriptures.

[malakhi]

Like with steak and cheese.

Yum! :o)

[OLD REGGIE]

Then what exactly did Christ die for?

If you are too busy to reference what you are talking about, I'm too busy to reply.

[malakhi]

Same standard, folks were looking forward to a savior, believed got saved

Even though they didn't know his name, or that he was to be divine God-man?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Even though they didn't know his name, or that he was to be divine God-man?

They were on a need to know basis, they had all they needed to know at that time, believed it, got saved. Get out of your box. :)

BigMack