The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

Associated Press ^ | 3/24/01

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Previous Thread

[tHe AnTiLiB]

I thought I had sent those to Invincibly Ignorant. Sorry, just getting started.

I APOLOGIZE

[tHe AnTiLiB]

Then what exactly did Christ die for?

[tHe AnTiLiB]

I don't think it is. When their is no solid theology, it may lead to thousands of different interpretations.

[tHe AnTiLiB]

Whether there are 5,000 actual Protestant religions with names, there are well over 30,000 different interpretations. You can not deny that. Now I do admit there is some multiple interpretations in the RCC but it is impossible for everyone to understand something the same way.

[tHe AnTiLiB]

In my years of studying fundamentalism, necromancy is a new word. I know the Bible states that dead have no power in the world after they die. But they can pray to God for the people on earth.

[tHe AnTiLiB]

If heaven were referring to paradise, the Bible would have mentioned hell.

[biblewonk]

Not exactly. I suspect that Paul meant the same thing David meant (big surprise?). Which was certainly not "each and every single person is only unrighteous". I might say "no one can assume they are righteous because they are jewish, or because they are circumcised or perform certain other rituals."

Sorry, this is one of the very least spinnable scriptures there are. To say babies are sinnless is to say that they don't have any need of grace. It would be to say that they are worthy of heaven when they are born up until some point where they start sinning.

Rom: 9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

[IMRight]

Spin is not required. Just reading the verse he is quoting is sufficient. Read that Psalm and tell me how it could possibly mean that? And if it didn't mean it when David wrote it... how could Paul take it out of context?

It would be to say that they are worthy of heaven when they are born up until some point where they start sinning.

Not at all! (though that appears to be the Baptist "age of accountability" position). Even were it possible to be sinless, that would NOT entitle someone to go to Heaven. Heaven is not merely awarded for a lack of sin. That's like saying I should get a promotion because I didn't do anything to get fired. Adam and Eve were not bound for Heaven prior to the fall, they were merely creatures, not adopted children of God. The Cross does far more than merely remove sin.

And I don't think "sinless" is the right word for infants. Newborns merely lack actual personal sin (but it doesn't take long).

[biblewonk]

...We notice that Vatican II did not add the words "of all graces." However, as many papal texts point out, Mary's role in dispensation flows logically from her role in acquiring all graces. Further, the Council itself added a note on the above passage, in which it refers us to the texts of Leo XIII, Adiutricem populi, St. Pius X, Ad diem illum, Pius XI, Miserentissimus Redemptor, and Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima.

Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having "practically limitless power." St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the "neck" connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said "Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion." These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible...

Wow! Thanks for the ping!

[biblewonk]

OK. Then we are in agreement on this one.

[IMRight]

Not going to even take a shot at Psalm 14, 3-5? :-)

[biblewonk]

Psalm 14:
1 The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
3 They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the LORD?
5 There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.
6 You shame the counsel of the poor, But the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

[IMRight]

Galloway was in Saddam's pay, say secret Iraqi documents (PACIFISTS ON SADDAM PAYROLL)>

I saw that. Things could get quite interesting in the comming weeks.

I also read that he was suing the paper for their "slander" even though he admitted writing the letter that was attached to the "forgery".

Those cowboys are all traitors! I bet Seattle is glad they got rid of him.

[IMRight]

Unimpeachable interpretation. Absolutely right on.

[biblewonk]

Unimpeachable interpretation. Absolutely right on.

This Psalm clearly shows that Mary is at the right hand of God and has unlimited power at her disposal because she is the neck thingy.

[al_c]

biblewonk, is that you? ;o)

[IMRight]

This Psalm clearly shows that Mary is at the right hand of God and has unlimited power at her disposal because she is the neck thingy.

Mary is a turtleneck?

[al_c]

Man, have I missed out on the fun! AlguyA, Havoc, biblewonk ... seeing those names in this thread is like old times. ;o)

Anyone seen doctor7?

Hope everyone had a wonderful Easter (and Passover).

[IMRight]

Man, have I missed out on the fun! AlguyA, Havoc, biblewonk ...

Thanks a heck of a lot. I missed you too.

[biblewonk]

Leo XIII, in the text referred to, spoke of her, as we saw above, as having "practically limitless power." St. Pius X said she was the "dispensatrix of all the gifts, and is the "neck" connecting the Head of the Mystical Body to the Members. But all power flows through the neck. Pius XII said "Her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion." These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible...

And there ya have it. It is as clear from Psalm 14 as it is from any other piece of the bible.